Acquiring containers from step during autonomous

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by wilderbuchanan

Unless some teams develop non wheel robots that can stack a tote every 2 seconds from anywhere on the field ,i don't think it will matter that much. I think teams will target stacking the recycling bins and autonomous because both are worth a lot more.

As noted, this is mostly going to matter to top ranked teams in Elims. Especially at MSC and Champs. The question you have to ask yourself is if you think a #1 or #2 seed is capable of doing more than three 5-6 tote + container stacks. If they are, then you're starving them for points if you can control all 4 of the shared containers.

Also, picking the containers up isn't actually necessary for a denial strategy to work. You just have to get them onto your side of the field. Once they're beyond the step, they're off limits. I wouldn't be surprised to see a specialized auton and mechanism to swipe the two middle containers in autonomous mode and count on winning the race for one of the two outside containers.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

As noted, this is mostly going to matter to top ranked teams in Elims. Especially at MSC and Champs. The question you have to ask yourself is if you think a #1 or #2 seed is capable of doing more than three 5-6 tote + container stacks. If they are, then you're starving them for points if you can control all 4 of the shared containers.

Also, picking the containers up isn't actually necessary for a denial strategy to work. You just have to get them onto your side of the field. Once they're beyond the step, they're off limits. I wouldn't be surprised to see a specialized auton and mechanism to swipe the two middle containers in autonomous mode and count on winning the race for one of the two outside containers.

Presume 3 containers scored atop a stack of 5, each with a piece of litter.

Per stack, that's worth:
5 totes x 2 points ea. -- 10 pts.
5 levels x 4 points / level -- 20 pts.
1 litter x 6 points -- 6 pts.
36 pts.

3 stacks x 36 pts. per stack = 108 points.

Ignoring the additional time required, for better or for worse, presume that 2 containers are taken from the step at some point during the match and the number of totes consumed remains unchanged.

Per stack:
3 totes x 2 points ea. -- 6 pts.
3 levels x 4 points / level -- 12 pts.
1 litter x 6 points -- 6 pts.
24 pts. per stack.

5 stacks x 24 pts. per stack = 120 points.

In many instances, it'll be more efficient for alliances to form more shorter stacks than a few taller ones if containers can be obtained and scored on those stacks. It's easier to make shorter tote stacks and easier to place containers on shorter stacks, as well.

[Bruceb]

keep in mind that starving your opponents of points is of little use especially if you are wasting your own scoring time doing it.
If you can acquire the containers from the step AND score them then you have a winning strategy in my humble opinion.

So if you are aligned with 2 great stackers that can get 3 full stacks and have time left then acquiring the step containers is going to be very valuable.

[themccannman]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

There is an exact diagram in the manual that shows hanging over the step is completely ok, so long as you are not in contact with the other game pieces or carpet, I believe.

This isn't what they are asking about. In 2014 zone boundaries were specifically described as the infinite plane extending upwards from the edge of each marked area on the carpet. This year's game manual says nothing about the 3rd dimension of field zones. OP's question is whether or not the air above the landfill/autozone is included as part of each respective zone, or if only the actual carpet is the real zone.

[TomThompson]

This isn't what they are asking about. In 2014 zone boundaries were specifically described as the infinite plane extending upwards from the edge of each marked area on the carpet. This year's game manual says nothing about the 3rd dimension of field zones. OP's question is whether or not the air above the landfill/autozone is included as part of each respective zone, or if only the actual carpet is the real zone.

Precisely my question. Definitely needs clarification, but I believe all the indicators are point toward being able to extend over the landfill and auto zones at the beginning of the game.

1. Robots have no limits on x and y dimensions which would make no sense if you can't stretch over those zones.
2. The rules talk about the zone area and not the zone volume.
3. No mention of an imaginary vertical plane which is language used in previous games.

[JB987]

Might be a very important question to ask Q and A Wednesday...who is game to do it?

[asid61]

Originally Posted by TomThompson

Precisely my question. Definitely needs clarification, but I believe all the indicators are point toward being able to extend over the landfill and auto zones at the beginning of the game.

1. Robots have no limits on x and y dimensions which would make no sense if you can't stretch over those zones.
2. The rules talk about the zone area and not the zone volume.
3. No mention of an imaginary vertical plane which is language used in previous games.

I agree with you that you can go over, but that's only useful for grabbing the bins at the beginning. It's not like you're going to run an effective defense game with a bar extending 3 feet away from your bot over the step.

[Squeakypig]

Since nobody has said it yet:

A container set in autonomous mode states: "A CONTAINER SET exists if any three (3) RECYCLING CONTAINERS are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO."

Emphasis mine.

Therefore, it seems you could have 6 containers in your auto zone at the end of auto, you could have 2 container sets.

Max Score Calculations +8.

[SoccerTaco]

I'm looking forward to watching an autonomous container-tug-of-war battle...

[RunawayEngineer]

Originally Posted by Squeakypig

Since nobody has said it yet:

A container set in autonomous mode states: "A CONTAINER SET exists if any three (3) RECYCLING CONTAINERS are fully contained by the AUTO ZONE at the end of AUTO."

Emphasis mine.

Therefore, it seems you could have 6 containers in your auto zone at the end of auto, you could have 2 container sets.

Max Score Calculations +8.

The wording is confusing, but a Container Set either exists or it doesn't - meaning that the score can't be applied more than once. You don't get one for every set of 3.

WARNING - Taking manual lawyering too far below ~~~~
If you did get points for every set that exists, then you get a set for every combination of RCs since there is no requirement for exclusivity. Your points would be the combination where "n" is the number in the zone and "r" is 3. So 6 containers would actually be worth 20*8=160 points.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinator...alculator.html
~~~~

[ScottM]

Originally Posted by TomThompson

Precisely my question. Definitely needs clarification, but I believe all the indicators are point toward being able to extend over the landfill and auto zones at the beginning of the game.

1. Robots have no limits on x and y dimensions which would make no sense if you can't stretch over those zones.
2. The rules talk about the zone area and not the zone volume.
3. No mention of an imaginary vertical plane which is language used in previous games.

Rule G7 seems to be very clear that you can't do this.

[byron.h15]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

If you are referencing figure 3-8, in <G18>, that is not related to Auton, but interaction with the step.

I believe that because G18 is in the "General Rules" of the game that the rule could apply to Autonomous. However, I understand that the rule is aimed at Teleop because the likelihood of the rule being violated during Autonomous is very low. I do not doubt that the refs will gladly give out the penalty because a team would need to pre-program their robots to violate the rule.

[penguin4130]

Originally Posted by ScottM

Rule G7 seems to be very clear that you can't do this.

Rule G7 just says you can't be in either zone when placed on the field before the match has started. I'd say autonomous counts as part of the match.

[themccannman]

Originally Posted by ScottM

Rule G7 seems to be very clear that you can't do this.

It's not. If the auto/landfill zones are not the infinite upwards plane then you can start with your robot extended into any legal game area as long as the ground supporting it is not in an illegal zone.

Originally Posted by byron.h15

I believe that because G18 is in the "General Rules" of the game that the rule could apply to Autonomous. However, I understand that the rule is aimed at Teleop because the likelihood of the rule being violated during Autonomous is very low. I do not doubt that the refs will gladly give out the penalty because a team would need to pre-program their robots to violate the rule.

G18 applies at all times during the game, it's not directed at auto or teleop, it's both.