New numbering rules?

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Foster

On the other hand when I look across the 4000 teams building a robot, your team's biggest issue is the back light. I'm humbled that you have solved, designed and are ready to build a robot and have extra, nay, vast amounts of extra energy and build time to move a lighted team number to the top of your build list.

I've added your team to my personal "robots to watch" list, can't wait to see how you make out.

My point is that the rule is oddly specific. I get that the specificity is for the sake of simplicity, and of course im not wasting time developing light stuff when there's much more important work to do. Im not sure how you're planning to do lights but if it's taking vast amounts of time and energy during build season, you're doing it wrong. If you'd like to look, my base code is already available on CD, and it was before kickoff. I work with arduino as a hobby, not because i think it is the most essential part of the robot, and when one of my hobbies just so happened to cross with robotics, i decided to take advantage of the opportunity.

ON A LIGHTER NOTE:

Originally Posted by MrForbes

There are still more than 10,000 square inches of space on your robot to fill with your wonderful graphic design. Just make the numbers so us blind old folks can read them, please?

Originally Posted by EricH

This. I would also suggest the following test:

If you (Edit: or, preferably, your grandparents) cannot read your robot's numbers from 50 yards out (150 ft), give or take a bit, then you may want to reconsider font, size, or stroke. Why 50 yards? That would be some of the farther scouts who are wishing they'd brought binoculars to read your numbers.

Oh yes, the lights we're using are the old AM2640s, so if anything we may have an issue with blinding people But, if we were to do backlit designs, they would be done using frosted lexan so it'd be easier to read. (i know the feeling, theres a reason i stick to pit scouting lol)

[Abhishek R]

I'm a little disappointed too. I'm glad they do give us the freedom of font, however it would be nice to be able to display your number in another way that isn't a white placard that looks like a marathon number. I don't think it allows you to even have your own color border to create contrast, which is interesting considering the bumper rules only said you must have a white outline, rather than fully solid white numbers.

[MrForbes]

Since we have the freedom of font choice, I'm sure there will be plenty of unreadable black-on-white team numbers.

Oh well.

(the lame Mr. Forbes solution would be to have FIRST provide preprinted team number placards at the events, just like at marathons)

[scca229]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

Since we have the freedom of font choice, I'm sure there will be plenty of unreadable black-on-white team numbers.

Oh well.

(the lame Mr. Forbes solution would be to have FIRST provide preprinted team number placards at the events, just like at marathons)

Many teams couldn't figure out in recent years, even with the bumpers, how to make numbers legible, and that was when I was right next to them on the field. I'm fully expecting the numbering to be a major headache again this year with them being hidden among a boatload of logos, lights, and other junk. I believe that a big part of ref problems entering fouls and such were trying to figure out what the heck the number was to do so for tracking.

I was hoping that a standard, "This is the font you ARE going to use," was included. I got half my wish by them having to be black on a white background. Just giving the height/stroke doesn't really work since teams don't seem to own measuring instruments to make sure they meet the rule. Handing out the marathon numbers would be an improvement....

[catacon]

I do a fair amount of automotive racing and this is often an issue in those events as well. Many people want fancy/stylish/funny/whatever numbers and class letters on their cars so they can be unique. Unfortunately, when a car is flying by at 100+ MPH, those shiny yellow numbers are real hard to read on a white car... So many groups have gotten very strict over the years about what number styles and color combinations are acceptable.

While our robots aren't going 100 MPH, there is still a lot of commotion on the field and those fancy-pants numbers can be difficult to spot. And what one person (an inspector) may think is easily visible, a ref or other volunteer may find unreadable. Standardized black letters on a white background are without a doubt very readable and save inspectors from having to make a judgement call about readability. Save the creativity for team logos, shirts, driver stations, and other parts of the robot.

[StillDefective]

Originally Posted by scca229

I was hoping that a standard, "This is the font you ARE going to use," was included. I got half my wish by them having to be black on a white background.

FIRST can't, won't and didn't do this because some teams may not have access to some fonts. Not every team has access to word, or may have very limited computer access in general, and this gives teams the freedom to write the words on a piece of printer paper at the last second when they forgot the numbers.

[jvriezen]

Its probably not a coincidence that the numbers must be 3.5" with one inch border white space, which comes to 5.5" which when doubled comes to 11" and fits nicely on a 1/2 page of standard (US) letter paper.

Note that if you have four pit placards from prior regionals stashed away, these can be used, look great and satisfy the bumper number rules-- they come with FRC logos and big black numbers on white background on a sturdy card.

I'm guessing the rules are written such that when any team that arrives with 'questionable' numbers/colors (or missing ones), the LRI can use his printer (or the FMS setup's printer) to print bumper numbers for the team, and the team/mentor can't complain that the LRI is being unreasonable in asking them to do too much 'work' to fix the problem. Inspector provides the printed numbers (maybe even on card stock) and all you need to do is find some tape and three or four places to tape them to on your bot.

I'm sure most inspectors/LRIs would rather deal with more consequential issues with teams than bumpers, bumper colors/covers, bumper zones, bumper number quality, frame perimeters, and such. Seems like the rules have largely accomplished that this year. I for one am happy about that.

[Jon Stratis]

How are the new number rules any more specific than the old ones?

2014:

Team numbers must be displayed on the BUMPERS and meet the following criteria:
A. consist of numerals at least 4 in. high, at least ½ in. in stroke width, and be either white in color or outlined in
white,
B. may not wrap around a corner of the FRAME PERIMETER (for the purposes of R28 a round or circular FRAME
PERIMETER has no corners), and
C. be positioned around the ROBOT such that an observer walking around the perimeter of the ROBOT can
unambiguously tell the Team’s number from any point of view.

2015:

R2 Team numbers must be displayed on the ROBOT and meet
the following criteria:
A. consist of numerals at least 3.5 in. high, at least 0.5 in. in stroke width,
and be black in color with a white background extending at least 1 in.
from the edges of the numbering,
B. be positioned around the ROBOT such that an observer walking around
the perimeter of the ROBOT can unambiguously tell the Team’s number
from any point of view.

In both cases, height, stroke width, and positioning are defined. The only addition is the surrounded by white portion, which wasn't applicable when they were mounted on bumpers. So instead of standard size and colored background from the bumpers, they specify something new.

[atucker4072]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

As a graphic designer R2 kills my dreams.

Also killing 148's dreams.

[orangemoore]

Someone should ask for a change in the Q/A. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the rule because of it.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

Someone should ask for a change in the Q/A. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the rule because of it.

On what basis? The GDC is not known for robot rule changes except to clarify or to address a technical issue in their regulations.

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by Billfred

On what basis? The GDC is not known for robot rule changes except to clarify or to address a technical issue in their regulations.

Your probably right. I still say ask it. You will never get anything you want unless you first ask.

[one_each]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

As a graphic designer R2 kills my dreams.

Come up with an awesome design that has makes this plain black and white rectangle come to life. Accept the challenge!

[K-Dawg157]

Originally Posted by one_each

Come up with an awesome design that has makes this plain black and white rectangle come to life. Accept the challenge!

This kid is creative. Go you!!!

[scca229]

Originally Posted by StillDefective

FIRST can't, won't and didn't do this because some teams may not have access to some fonts. Not every team has access to word, or may have very limited computer access in general, and this gives teams the freedom to write the words on a piece of printer paper at the last second when they forgot the numbers.

No need for Word. That driver station computer that they must use to operate the robot when at the event probably has WordPad or at worst, Notepad. Basic fonts that are on every Windows installation and are used by the system itself could be used.

Not being argumentative. Just pointing that there are other apps that are going to be on at least one machine they must have in their possession. Now a printer may possibly be an issue...but I'm also pretty sure a library (or UPS Store,FedEx Store) are around as well.

Consider it an engineering challenge for teams to show up at an event with a robot that has numbers that actually conform to what is in the rule book. They are not now, nor have been in the last 3 years I've been involved with running the field at FIRST events, onerous to implement....but you'd think so with how many bots show up non-conforming. Sorta like how many are building bumpers on that Thursday.