TNA Blacklist

[cglrcng]

OK....So, "Blacklisting FRC Teams?" isn't an exact quote of "TNA Blacklist", but this is the second or third or more thread so far mentioning "BLACKLIST" this week, that I have personally seen so far, in relation to 2015 FIRST FRC.

TNA is still currently possibly a real world problem in 2015 FRC...However, Blacklisting FIRST FRC TEAMS...Should never become, if properly applying GP, any "real world problem of ours." It simply should NOT BE DONE.

Discussing gameplay & ruleset strategy is very important, recognizing scoring problems that may/do create moral or ethical dilemmas, may also be very important....But, crossing over imaginary lines on the floor (and VERY REAL LINES in the FIRST MISSION STATEMENT concerning GP), is & can be easily penalized folks.
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From the ruleset GLOSSARY:

UNPROCESSED LITTER – LITTER which is fully contained by an ALLIANCE’S side of the FIELD but not scored in their LANDFILL ZONE or
scored in a RECYCLING CONTAINER. Each ALLIANCE receives an UNPROCESSED LITTER Bonus for the UNPROCESSED LITTER on the
opposite ALLIANCE’S side of the FIELD.
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Notice the word "BONUS" in that definition, it may very well be totally intentional (by the GDC), to simply test our ethics as a community, and how we personally as individual people, teams & alliances, solve the real world problems of ethics and GP, in the real business world properly.

CORRECTION: I just personally checked the UPDATES released today, and it (TNA collusion possibilities), was fully discussed by the GDC before the Game Release at Kickoff...See Frank's Personal Note, and the promise of a change soon. (I urge everyone to go read the UPDATES IMMEDIATELY!)
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Below is just partially taken from the end of "Frank's Personal Note" in Today's Update (1-6-2015), concerning the Litter Rules and TNA Collusion, and how it is possibly distracting from other strategic elements of the game. (Go read the entire Note in the Update Section Please for all the what, whys, what for's, and effects....It is a full understanding type explaination note).

"........So, in this case, we will be making some changes to the rules to discourage this activity. They won’t be perfect, but they should be an
improvement. Game Design, like robot design, means working through many trade-offs. The changes are not ready for today’s update, but
will follow shortly."

Frank
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We can work together to solve the problems (though it looks like they will fix them for us, to somewhat discourage TNA - they are just not quite ready yet), as long as we remain ethical & moral (simply put as GP), in relation to how we all do so.
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I would like to thank the entire GDC and Frank personally, for looking at the "Noodle Dillemma" and for early on, planning on taking some kind of reasonable change action (even if not eventually perfect)...

May I suggest a simple change to a combo of awarding a +2 Bonus of points to the opposing Alliance, & a -2 Deduction of points (or Penalty) to each Alliance posessing UNPROCESSED LITTER (TNA effect would be NET ZERO Bonus, if that TNA collusion is also present), except for the litter left in the original drum exception of course, (as it still gives a 4 point net effect per Unprocessed Litter, and negates or takes away any & all advantage to any broad spectrum TNA), but still allows Alliance/Team litter collusion if they wish to participate in such, without a simple single 6 teams/2 alliance agreement thereby forcing all others, to either collude (whether they wish to or not), from thereon, or get left in the dust as far as the QA points average is concerned.

There were a few other equally good suggestions already made too, and I'm sure there are other solutions not yet even thought of by either the community, or the GDC. But, that 1 seems IMHO, the easiest to implement by a software coding change (and a rule change), in the scoring of the game concerning UNPROCESSED LITTER (still allows litter collusion and GP actions), and, once the solution was implemented, would affect all matches throughout the season equally. (The more TNA was thought about, the more differring collusion routes, results, & combinations presented themselves (EG: +80 Easy/+100 Harder/+0 Easiest...My bet & money wasn't on +Zero being the often chosen answer, as the FRC Community rarely chooses Easiest as an answer...to pretty much anything).

Then, many could just get back to designing and implementing the processing & recycling, of as much litter as possible in "Recycle RUSH!" (Let's get back to building robots now, and beyond the Game Strategy section...That clock is ticking down really fast!)

Thanks again, to FIRST, The entire GDC, and FRANK for noticing, listening, and responding to the FRC Community! (Frank Merrick, Director of FRC, & Leader of the GDC - "He be....The Man!")

The 2015 FIRST FRC "Noodle Dillemma" is somewhat easier to resolve than "The Prisoners' Dillemma." (And we look forward to it being improved or resolved soon as promised today, in one way or another).

YEAH! (Sry Sunny, I was still formulating and typing when you posted...I also saw the update in another browser while doing so too).

[Bongle]

Hooray, sounds like it'll die.

The enormous problem with a blacklist is that it is difficult to verify that every single team in an alliance got the message. It would be very easy for someone who was on the wrong side of a TNA result to say "THAT TEAM SAID THEY WOULD!"

*But maybe the opposing that said they would wasn't the team with the HP at the HP station.
*Maybe the agreement was with a driver, and they didn't have time to tell their HP
*Maybe circumstances intervened
*Maybe a huge tote stack got built and hurt visibility, so that other team couldn't see the noodles getting put out.
*Maybe a robot accidentally cleaned up the noodes while heading to the STEP.

Regionals are loud, exciting places. The TNA handshake would need to percolate from those that handshook to the 20 or so people involved in coaching, operating, and human-playering in the match.

A blacklist entry for a team would be a claim that:
1) Everyone in the match (drivers, coaches, and most importantly human players on all 3 teams) was in agreement they'd do TNA
and
2) It didn't happen.
and
3) It didn't happen because of a bad faith violation of TNA.

It is easy to verify [2] with video. It would be very, very hard to verify [1] or [3], and so wouldn't be worth besmirching a team's reputation.

[K-Dawg157]

This is almost disgraceful...

Why would we make a blacklist just to hurt other teams' reputations? That is very sad... The Noodle Agreement doesn't make sense anyway because all it would do is give you a higher score... but give the other team a higher score as well. Why not just focus on getting the highest score you can for your team?

Gracious Professionalism... isn't that a thing?

[Lij2015]

This concept angers me, also the verification process wouldn't even make it worth it. Because how on earth do you verify who's HP that is? And if you can't do you blacklist the whole alliance?

You are choosing to participate in something that is essentially exploiting points, if someone screws you over then OH WELL you chose to participate.

Do what you want with it but this concept seems pretty childish

[MikeDennis1719]

Originally Posted by excel2474

I would verify it with video footage that is often on the blue alliance or with the video my team recorded. The Blacklist would just be a nice tool to see if I needed to go back and check the video.

You could indeed verify that one alliance failed to dump noodles, or perhaps herded their noodles into the Landfill at the last moment. What you could never confirm is the nature of the putative agreement itself: which of the six teams involved actually did or did not agree to abide by TNA in the first place under the confusing pre-match conditions. Who felt pressured to do something they weren't really comfortable with? Who sent a runner to the opposing alliance before the match started to rescind TNA that didn't get the message through? etc., etc. A blacklist is just a very bad idea for trying to deal with an ill-conceived incentive system that the GDC will, we hope, straighten out shortly.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by AndyBare

I don't think this is it. In rebound, an alliance could have gone over the co-op ramp expecting to meet and balance, only to be abandoned as the opposing alliance scored a triple balance.

Co-op balancing wasn't a factor in eliminations.
Triple balancing wasn't a factor in qualifications.

You general point can still stand (team decides to score winning points in some fashion while member of other alliance waits on co-op bridge), but not the specifics regarding the triple balance.

[cglrcng]

Same thing can happen here in Recycle Rush (Not in just 1 way, but 2 possible ways)...For some reason an alliance may decide not to participate in Co-Op. (And there will be more than 1 single reason for any instances that possibly occur).

You put 3 Yellow Totes on the Step, you don't need them to do anything except put at least 1 of their Yellow Totes on the Step (that you can actually reach that is, or reach eventually during the match w/ time left to score), and you can cap your own stack of 3 Yellow Totes with their 1, and you have both gained the Co-Op stack points immediately after your release of the stack for at least 3 seconds. (The Co-Op act is actually the act of moving them to the shelf, not necessarily the stacking of them, though 1 must stack it to gain the full 4 stack points.

But, if they steal the stack (earlier, or any time within those 3 seconds mentioned earlier after the stack), and store it on the other side of the step, or they never place even 1 Yellow Tote on the step at all, ever during the match (or do "The Foolish Floor Store" method for some unknown reason)...There isn't a thing you can do about it! Co-Op, simply takes 2 alliance (or at least 2 team), cooperation in 1 form or another, and at least 4 Totes making it onto that shelf.

Some people just shun (or for some unknown reason, don't buy into easily), opposition team/alliance cooperation when competing. The QA (Qualifying Points Averaging), should help in getting a bit more Co-Op. participation this year I would think & hope.

We'll soon see.

[cglrcng]

BTW, as it stands right now (still looking very forward to the promised Litter Rule or scoring changes, hopefully this Tuesday)....Litter TNA Collusion does not even take 6 teams to actually collude...It takes only 2 single team members (or 2 Coaches directing 2 human players, 1 from each alliance in Q1 or anytime later)...And everyone thereafter, must either do so and follow suit, or risk lower QA Points Averages at the end of 10 Q Matches are completed.

See my recent post about "Immediate 10 Litter Hogging/HPZ Campout" during Auto in the TNA Thread.

There are so many possible nuances & possibilities concerning points scoring & overall game strategy with this particular game, that it is amazing. It is a whole lot more than just building stacks and vision hampering walls right in front of yourselves. Keeping track of where you are vs. the competition will not be easy to say the very least. If you do your jobs right....You won't even be able to see your competition a minute and a half or so into it. (Build outside inward folks).
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Off Topic here;

And for those who will be putting cameras up on poles above their driver consoles (easily done using a webcam software on the laptop without using the FMS I'd think)....I hope they also saw the other Q&A question & answer also about the possible use of clamps on the driver console shelves, and allowing clamping their consoles to the shelves (The answer was basically that it was "OK as long as it does not damage the shelf"), as I certainly hope we do not see the teams step back behind the lines (you are usually there for more than just 15 seconds, but controlled behind that line at least 15 seconds during auto), and all those poles, cameras, and driver consoles come tumbling down on top of team members heads repeatedly!) Since FIRST says it is OK, I have nothing to say.

But, that is just asking a whole lot of a simple velcro strip IMHO, and the glue that holds it onto both surfaces,...some painted, some wood & the other myriad of materials used on the consoles.

I can just imagine your own robots during Auto slamming into that Alliance wall (because of speed & reversed code entered among other things, the shelves are directly attached to that wall), and an avalanche of driver consoles w/ poles & cameras all up high, come tumbling down while you are not looking up, but watching how your robots are doing during auto through the glass 3~4 steps back, or worse, while the whole crew is stacking those totes right outside the Human Player Zones for later use.

Teleop Period would gain a whole new meaning if you were all using the precious time to P.U. and attempt to reconnect to the field or even worse, all those damaged cameras/LCD's/controllers/ & hard drives possibility. (hint: If your laptop has an accelerometer hard drive parking capability internally,...always make sure it is installed software/driver wise, and turned on or active). Don't think it cannot happen....(It does often enough without poles or cameras up high attached to them).

And we thought they dropped consoles before, or it was a fairly tough or uncomfortable pc. to carry around. LOL. Not yet!

[EricH]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

BTW, as it stands right now (still looking very forward to the promised Litter Rule or scoring changes, hopefully this Tuesday)....

Your penalty for not reading the FRIDAY team update (issued today) is to first read the update, then apply the corrective action to the noodle.

After which, please clean the shop.


(Taken care of using the "colored tape on the ends and middle" method, and if the color matches, no points except in landfill, but if the color doesn't match, points go to SOMEBODY.)

[cglrcng]

They did a great job between the Q&A and the 1-6-2014 & 1-9-2104 Updates. Great job! (Goodbye TNA, glad we never really met ya!).