Is Autonomous worth it?

[TimTheGreat]

The top autonomous score last year was 75, which in many matches was half or more of the total score. This year, the top is only 32. This includes getting the 3 totes stacked, which gives 20 points. My question is, do you think that it is worth the programming hours for vision tracking (which I know does not need to be done)and testing and praying that other robots don't get in the way for a measly 20 points?

[Ben Martin]

In our case, it is. Getting a stacked set for 20 during auto saves time and makes it easy to do your part to get the 40 coop points very quickly during the teleoperated period.

[eddie12390]

The problem is that at the regional level, there won't be many situations where 32 points is negligible as that will probably be more than half of the average score per match. You have fifteen seconds dedicated to attempting to score these points, in my eyes it is absolutely worth attempting to score points (provided that you don't have an Alliance partner who you will be interfering with)

[SquishyIce]

Another option to consider for autonomous is grabbing recycling containers from the step. Depending on your alliance's stacking abilities, this may get you more net points as those containers will probably be snatched up quickly in teleoperated.

[sodizzle]

I'm trying not to count anything as not worth it. Because matches can be won or lost by 1 point. It's happened plenty of times before.

[ScottOliveira]

While the impact on points relative to a match may be smaller, because qualifications are based on average points instead of win/loss, those 20 points can have a much larger impact (there will likely be a number of regionals where one or more spots on the top 8 is decided by a margin of 20 points).

Also for teams with very specific subsystems, the hours are easier spent -if you have a specific group working on programming, then this gives them more things to work towards besides tele-op controls, which are frequently (but not always) relatively straightforward to develop.

[Kevin Sevcik]

At the very least, there's the standard disclaimer that scoring values may change at Champs.

Also, 20 points is 20 points. That's 10 totes or a RC on 3 totes or a RC+litter on 2 totes. I think that would be a winning margin in a lot of matches. If your non-autonomous programming efforts aren't going to added up to 20 points of improved efficiency, then your time really might be better spent on auton.

EDIT:And just realized I'm still falling into W-L-T thinking. It's apparently really difficult to shift into an average points mindset.

[Lij2015]

In my opinion the 20 points is worth doing the programming for, without vision tracking because I honestly think tracking is worthless this year.

Doing the three tote stack is the only reliable way to get any points in autonomous this year, at least at a regional. Also I think that scoring 20 points in auto will account for a good portion of your qualification average at a regional.

[dellagd]

While I too am skeptical of their point value's worth in the game, this year's autonomous tasks can be nice time savers (which, after all, is how you get a large amount of points in a short match) for actions that will take place in teleop. For example, getting a container set only requires that the containers be in the auto zone, not placed on the ground not touching a robot. By having a team pick up and move a container into the zone, they are now easily poised to place that container on a stack.

More so, while creating a three stack in autonomous could be a small amount of points over the match, once that stack is created is can then be easily utilized for the co-op stack later on, possibly leading to a quick 40 points if the other alliance can simply place a single tote on the step. That time save may equally or more important than the auto points themselves.

[Ryan Caldwell]

Top auto score is 40 by our calculations and will probably just help to close high scoring matches.

[dellagd]

Originally Posted by Ryan Caldwell

Top auto score is 40 by our calculations and will probably just help to close high scoring matches.

Technically you are correct, but I don't think something that hard to complete will happen till extremely high play, like Einstein.

[one_each]

Depending on time and skill (we have all new programmers this year) we will look at implementing several auto modes that can be selected by the drive team.

We will start with the simple ones of robot set, tote set and container set where we move nothing or one game piece during auto. Once that is done (and if we have the time) we will look at doing an auto stack by ourselves (with the rest of the alliance getting out of the way).

I would love to see us do more, but we don't have the time / knowledge to work on vision this year.

[pfreivald]

I simply don't see an Autonomous Stack happening except by single robots picking up all three crates--and that's going to be a difficult task only accomplished by the best of the best.

The totes are about 21 feet apart, so you have fifteen seconds to acquire, move ~7', acquire-stack, move ~7', acquire-stack, move ~7' to get in the zone (Auto Zone!), let go, then move a very small amount.

All while avoiding your alliance partners and the Containers.

Possible? Sure.
Probable? Only at the highest levels of competition.

[George Nishimura]

I think there are two concerns here:

First, how much does autonomous cost from a team strategy perspective. By team strategy, I mean resource (time and personnel) allocation within a team over the course of the season. Unfortunately that's heavily dependent on what resources you have available to you.

I will say that I believe autonomous code (vision tracking <: auto code) is an interesting and educational software challenge which can be useful independent of (a) actual use (b) autonomous period and (c) this year. Autonomous operation isn't only restricted to autonomous period after all (especially in a game with such potential for visual impairment) and is annually part of the game.

The second concern is the value from a match strategy perspective.

I haven't done any points analysis or prediction this year, so deciding whether the 20/32 points is good proportionally I'll leave to other people.

Regardless of point values, there is of course the value of fifteen seconds of match time. Non-autonomous points can be "scored" during autonomous too, and it would seem like a waste to do nothing. But probably in a lot of teams' minds this year is that it's not just fifteen seconds, but the first fifteen seconds. Namely, two things are true:

a) the field is clear (no stacks have been built)
b) four recycling containers are on the step

As time progresses in a match, retreiving the containers could become harder as neither of those things are guaranteed to be true. Ambitious teams recognize that the maximum scores can only be achieved with containers, as they effectively act like multipliers.

(There's also a regional strategy perspective that could come in to play. Autonomous code is an attractive message to send out and could even be recognized in an award)

tl;dr - imo i'd nick the bins

[jee7s]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

I simply don't see an Autonomous Stack happening except by single robots picking up all three crates--and that's going to be a difficult task only accomplished by the best of the best.

The totes are about 21 feet apart, so you have fifteen seconds to acquire, move ~7', acquire-stack, move ~7', acquire-stack, move ~7' to get in the zone (Auto Zone!), let go, then move a very small amount.

All while avoiding your alliance partners and the Containers.

Possible? Sure.
Probable? Only at the highest levels of competition.

Not to single out Patrick here, but this is indicative of a lot of "thinking before the change." There's an assumption here that you need to move to do each acquire-stack operation. Separately, there's an assumption that you need vision tracking to find the totes. But, I can just as easily picture a situation where a robot touches all of the totes with a mechanism at match start, pulls them toward each other in a known and predictable way, stacks them, and carries them into the Auto Zone and sets them down. Not that my team is planning on building that mechanism, but the stack can be made without moving the robot in (as a guesstimate) 5 seconds. Then drive forward and set it down. 20 points in 8 seconds. Boom done.

I know my team has struggled with the change. It's pretty dramatic, really opens up possibilities, but also takes effort to shift the frame of reference.