Odd things the rules allow, and should probably be changed

[JesseK]

As part of the Build Blitz Strategy session, Karthik responded to a question with probably the craziest idea I've heard this season: tie a rope around a recycle bin, connected to simple drive base after the robot is set down on the field, then drive forward in autonomous.

There's some real merit there that would easily make this the greatest (usually shot-down) idea ever: replace rope with a plastic or metal strap, and make sure it doesn't touch the recycle bin prior to the start of the match. There's a very good chance the recycle bin stays upright, and a partner can easily get it out of the strap in teleop. The strap stays hanging out the back of the robot, but it isn't getting tangled in anyone's wheels.

It easily complies with all of the rules and is the type of atypical ideas we can come up with this year.

[ThePremium6]

is there anything in the rules restricting what the human players can wear that will help them with the crates and noodles? like gloves and stuff like that?

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by ThePremium6

is there anything in the rules restricting what the human players can wear that will help them with the crates and noodles? like gloves and stuff like that?

T21, but last year's T22 had nearly identical wording and the GDC said via Q&A that gloves were legal.

[TheThings]

On the question of building a device to help throw pool noodle, the GDC has ruled on the Q&A that it is illegal. Sorry guys.

[Amar Shah]

Originally Posted by TheThings

On the question of building a device to help throw pool noodle, the GDC has ruled on the Q&A that it is illegal. Sorry guys.

Where do you see the questions and answers? I went to the site (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php) and it didn't seem like there were any questions on there yet.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Amar Shah

Where do you see the questions and answers? I went to the site (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php) and it didn't seem like there were any questions on there yet.

Click the "Search" button. (green, lower left) There are 4 pages of questions, some with answers.

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by TheThings

On the question of building a device to help throw pool noodle, the GDC has ruled on the Q&A that it is illegal. Sorry guys.

Originally Posted by Amar Shah

Where do you see the questions and answers? I went to the site (https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php) and it didn't seem like there were any questions on there yet.

Originally Posted by EricH

Click the "Search" button. (green, lower left) There are 4 pages of questions, some with answers.

In this case, Q2 is the question, well, in question.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by JesseK

As part of the Build Blitz Strategy session, Karthik responded to a question with probably the craziest idea I've heard this season: tie a rope around a recycle bin, connected to simple drive base after the robot is set down on the field, then drive forward in autonomous.

There's some real merit there that would easily make this the greatest (usually shot-down) idea ever: replace rope with a plastic or metal strap, and make sure it doesn't touch the recycle bin prior to the start of the match. There's a very good chance the recycle bin stays upright, and a partner can easily get it out of the strap in teleop. The strap stays hanging out the back of the robot, but it isn't getting tangled in anyone's wheels.

It easily complies with all of the rules and is the type of atypical ideas we can come up with this year.

Because of the size constraints this year, making a robot as wide as the feld which just tows the cans would be better than a viable strategy IMO. Denying the opposing alliance points in cans would limit them severely, to the point where, at the higher levels, the remaining two robots on your alliance could compete with their three.
Plus, you could drag all the totes near the middle near a scoring zone using almost the same mechanism.

[ey206208]

Originally Posted by caboosev11

Also, some things I noticed:

1. Since you don't need bumpers, there's nothing actually stopping you from making a flying robot or helicopter thing. It also could fly infinitely high since it itself isn't 78 inches tall.

2. Both alliances can drop all of their litter on their side of the feild, giving each other 40 points, raising the QA.

They announced they will be stopping the Noodle Agreement, but they are not sure how yet.

[MisterG]

Originally Posted by JesseK

make sure it doesn't touch the recycle bin prior to the start of the match.

Based on today's answer to Q&A 58 the robot can be touching the objects before the start of AUTO so this isn't a concern. The makes the rope strategy even more viable.

Of course the points earned by the simpler auto activities seem low compared to other game tasks.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by RallyJeff

3.1.2. (and 3.1.3 for fouls) spells out how and when scores are applied:

- auto points are awarded when the timer displays 0 at the end of auto.
- coopertition points are awarded instantly on completion of the coopertition set/stack.
- teleop points (except for coopertition) are awarded when the timer displays 0 at the end of teleop unless not all elements are at rest, in which case they're awarded 5 seconds after the timer displays 0.
- fouls are issued upon rule violation.

Of course, the rules don't say what will be displayed on the scoreboard unofficially during the game.

Last year look at the Ref to game piece ratio, I have faith the GDC has a workaround

[cglrcng]

The Rule in question:

R17 At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, known as the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, that shall not exceed 30 lbs. to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT.

Blue Box:
The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not
count towards this weight limit.

For Teams attending 2-Day Events, these FABRICATED ITEMS may be used during the Robot Access Period and/or brought to
the Event, but the total weight may not exceed 30 lbs. FABRICATED ITEMS constructed during the Robot Access Period and
bagged with the ROBOT are exempt from this limit.

Blue Box:

Items exempt from this limit are:
A. the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
B. any ROBOT battery assemblies (as described in R4).

_______________________________

Just an IDEA! And a whole bunch of questions for community discussion only at this point please:

Under R17.....Could a "Community Owned and Fabricated, at a single event (that simply takes out the WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE limitation in R17), set of 2 like manipulators, 1 each available per match, to at least 1 robot on both Alliances), weighing under say 5 lbs. each, that would bolt or clamp on, & simply plug in, to many if not most of many different robots (if pre-planning were fairly easy)....Could that "community owned/built/fabricated" item be shared among many Robots during a single competition? (This would be similar to the sharing of Mini-Bots, though those were specifically allowed, and highly encouraged directly by the existing rules then).

IF ACTUALLY ALLOWED BY THE 2015 Ruleset:

All Teams who voluntarily chose to possibly participate in the later use of, would contribute parts, pcs. & time in the creation of the FABRICATED ITEMS in like 15 minutes after initial pit opening on Thursday let's say, at the event only). Pre-Event multi-team Collusion on planning & design would certainly be legal though.

Each voluntarily participating team (if it was deemed eventually legal under the rules of course), would send 1 member only, to a central pit location at the event, to help FABRICATE a like pair, donate items to the community mission, or pay less than say $3~5.00 towards their/it's creation so that "the voluntary participating community" actually ALL owns a pc. of each of the Community Owned FABRICATED MANIPULATORS (That satisfies "and/or upgrade their ROBOT." part of R17 I think we could show fairly easily. (Questions to Q&A at a later date please, after careful debate & discussion here, they would need to be formulated later).

Given that R17 has some direct limitations and exemptions (though I personally see, that it is possible to attempt to work a plan, that could be successful, in abiding by R17 - (Both Letter & Spirit of the rule). True, the plan would have to be quite, or very specific, well thought out in advance, and teams would have to add to their pre-bag Robot design to participate if they wished, and plan to possibly participate before the robot was bagged, and/or make changes once at the event (that would be very easy to do w/ simply adding 1 speed controller, a little wiring and a programming code addition, and figure out quick attachment/detachment & storage possibilities to abide by the TRANSPORT CONFIGURATION requirement).

Would that be legal IF all sections of R17 (among many other rules like the BOM, inspection, and weighing w/ the ROBOTS requirements, etc.), were met?

Thinking about a single RC Set manipulator that could very easily be added to almost any robot to help those few that can only drive straight into the Auto Zone, and others, EG: Say Q26...All 3 Robots pr'd. on a single Alliance designed to Auto Stack Totes Individually, 2 designed to Steal Step RC's, but none designed to, singularly get all 3 RC's into the Auto Zone quickly and easily. What Now? (Thrashing a solution between Q rounds isn't so easy).

Well, a simple addition of "1 of the 2" quickly added "Community Owned and Built at the event 3 RC Collectors", and flip over to your already stored code for the Tri-RC Auto, and the RC Auto Set is easily accomplished...After the match, simply return that Community owned pc.

(Oooop's, maybe 4~8 would be better, since I just hit a real snag in the plan...Those in Que, cannot add it to their Transport Config. while in Quing).

Hey a few more avail. wouldn't cost much more than 2. Or, those are the risks the voluntary community takes, and If they are all checked out, it just isn't avail. for use right now. Returning them quickly could be accomplished easily if located in Pit #1 or something like that, lets say. Upon pit re-entry you drop it off quickly, or you stop by and pick it up quickly, and hang it on your hook in your bot for transport. Installs easily on the field and plugs in.

Yes, you have to adapt it for use (on your bot), the practice day if you did not plan ahead. We already know contact info for all that will be competing in events we are competing in already. There is still plenty of time to plan. If we can determine legality of the idea.
________________________________

Lets parse R17 a bit:

At an Event (If we only make or fabricate the items at the event, in say about 15 minutes together or less (many hands makes short work), and as soon as the pits open, as a strictly voluntary community of teams, from COTS items and spare parts sitting in a box, and all teams participating threw in or donated specific items to that box of COTS and spare parts,-giving each participating team partial ownership and work product, by contributing some labor in the actual creation each, from a single pre-accepted & collaborated design plan (a BOM Addendum was created ahead of time, and a handout given to all teams in the participating community).

, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS (Notice that it say's "TEAMS," and not "EACH TEAM," , and also take that all together, "At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS,", (yes, we would be creating a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS together),not bagged per R14, known as the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, that shall not exceed 30 lbs. to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. (Said "community paid for, created, and owned items, made at the event only, and all pcs. would be brought in only during the official Load In period, would not be bagged per R14, but would also be exempt from both the WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE, and the Bagging under R14...By simply being Made at the event, and should be able to be used to.../or upgrade their ROBOT. If owned by all, then the shared pc's. should satisfy that very important word "their ROBOT)...See the following blue box below R17.:

Blue Box:
The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not
count towards this weight limit.

Anyone see any real viable arguments about the non-violation in either Word or Spirit contained in the parsing of R17 above? (Making it at the event is the key, ownership by all participating in donations of materials & labor to the items made, and in correct BOM addition(s) helps plenty).

By making the items strictly "AT THE EVENT" (IF YOU remove all the exceptions that takes away - "known as the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, that shall not exceed 30 lbs. to be used to repair and"). And...(The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event). SINCE: (Items made at an Event do not
count towards this weight limit).

________________________
And it would truly match the balance of R17: (The remaining portions of R17 after removing the exceptions would be as follows

R17 At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.

"Items made at the event do not count towards the 'WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE' weight limit", but the "may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event." requirement does".
___________________
Then: (If the items are made only "At an Event", and "all pcs are brought in during initial Load In," and all voluntarily participating teams, contribute to the creation of the items in both labor & materials, and therefore, each own a pc. of "The Rock", or a portion of each item:

Then it would appear that it stands to reason, that "A Communty pr. or more, of specific multi-robot fitting, 3 RC Set Manipulator(s) created only and quickly at an event, to be shared pcs. (as long as all other rules are followed as pertains to, among others, BOM, Inspection, weighing, electrical, transport configuration, and game rules, etc.)

We would gain the advantage of helping each other, (not every team would have to build the killer 3 RC Set Manipulator, and both Alliances would stand to benefit equally every match without violating the letter or spirit of R17, by only allowing more participation by some, or all teams robots not designed initially for every single functionality during the Auto Period, to possibly work together a bit better and more often).

"At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, to be used to upgrade their ROBOT."

I'm just saying...Imagine using as a competing community R17 in that manner, to benefit each and your own teams. We aren't playing for W-L-T until the finals, we all compete against one another, but we all compete with each other also....What we do for the least of us, we all do for all the rest of us. Not all robots are designed & built to complete all functions or facets of the game...And a pusher bot that can only (IF), drive straight ahead, can only push 1 item at a time usually....A lil' help in programming, and a simple bolt or clamp on/plug in solution (and a few minutes of time), could go along way to help all teams.

I'm just saying to do it right...R17 could be shortened to mean simply if done right & sold right via the Q&A: At an Event...(voluntary participating) TEAMS...Have Access to a static set of (Community Created Owned & Loaned) FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14 (to be temporarily used by up to at least 1 robot per alliance per match), to upgrade their ROBOT.

Or,

R17 At an Event, Teams may have access to a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS, not bagged per R14, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT.

That, if determined legal would be a kick!

(They could even possibly also be silent auctioned off, or by raffle, during the event "if prior approved of course", for proceeds going to charity purposes, and awarded to the auction or raffle winners at the end of the event, to add to their witholding allowance, if they have room, and bagged up before leaving the event for use in a suceeding event. By that time, everyone would know the design, and whether it even worked well or not!)

Or simply taken apart and returned pc.-by-pc. to each team participating if the above suggestion was ruled illegal or not agreed to for some reason!

[EricH]

I would call that a far-fetched idea.

Try, instead, a team (or six, or some other number) bringing in RAW MATERIAL (that is, anything that is COTS or not already a FABRICATED ITEM), and, at the event, forming a group that would assist any team to upgrade their robot. That's far more plausible. In fact...

With similar rules on said items, there have more than once been concerted efforts to literally (quite literally) build a robot for a team that showed up without their own robot.

[cglrcng]

We do that already, and it is always encouraged to help those not ready yet, to get ready. My question was...Is it legal? Does that violate the word or the spirit of Rule R17? (If not, anything can be done). FIRST FRC is quite far fetched...(If you are on the outside looking in). Building a 2 parallel wheeled personal transport...Or, providing safe drinking water for millions in the world...Hugely Farfetched. Ri3D is quite farfetched, when you think about it, given some teams aren't even ready, after 6 weeks time.

Thinking outside the box (as long as it is legal by the rules), with nearly 5 more weeks still to go, and all the resources (a design idea, raw materials, contact info, etc., and a workable idea & plan, is not that farfetched at all). It is what FIRST Robotics is.

An RC Set- 8 points, is worth more points than either a Robot Set-4 points, or a Tote Set-6 points, in Auto (but not the Tote Stack-20 points of course). Why not make sure the least of us, and the most of us, can all get it (there will be many Q matchups of that other bit too, 3 great robots, that cannot all get everything they wish to, all accomplished in just the short 15 seconds, they may just often, all be competing for the same "on field jobs" as built too, and find they just might also sometimes need the pc.).

A very small team investment (time/materials/each shared as insurance), if within the rules of the game of course, could be found very lucrative faced w/ either situation....Never mind a quick improvement of the can't do much in Auto, Bots there always are. Helping them do more helps all of us together this year.

It also makes the Tote Stack, a whole lot easier to accomplish, if all 3 RC's are cleared away first (Immediately),into the auto zone (and all in an upright position is a pure bonus), making that task and others much easier. And it would clear the way for the shelf wars, to also be accomplished with just 3 robots.

Farfetched idea maybe, game strategy, oh yes. (Contacting just 40 other teams via e-mail, fairly easy, that info is avail.! Managing a 15 minute build w/ many hands, and the matl's & plans...How hard can that be, as at Thursday events, practice does not even start until Noon this year). Get in inspection line together as soon as shared manipulators are completed, hand them to the next robot in line, and the next....While we build, their BOMS are updated by other team members.....Everyone has at least 1 team member that they can spare for 15 minutes in the morning on Thursday to help build the pcs.). Adding 1 speed controller to each participating robot and minor wiring, and a breaker, and figuring how to mount it before bagging or that morning, 2 holes drilled 2 bolts and wingnuts, plug it in, add a bit of code (something already being talked about elsewhere on CD of building a straight drive "code library in all formats used," for any usual AUTO non-movers to make the Robot Set, and helping them implement it). The RoboRIO is a different creature right? You can choose from multiple Auto code choices?
____________________________
Farfetched or not...Did you agree that it may just be "within the rule" even if farfetched, or that anything said was absolutely in violation of R17 and would never fly? I was just parsing the Rule...I didn't find anything that violates it if done there, and properly done.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

Snip Snip

What are your thoughts the non being able to bring in spare parts and add them to the communism pile where if you have spare gear that you don't really need you can donate it to a shared pool?
Lets not get into details of what happens after the competition just the donation part please.