DART Linear Actuators for the CIM Motor

[alexander.h]

While waiting for the DART actuators to become available on AndyMark, I was wondering if the other two actuators mentioned in this thread (http://www.princessauto.com/en/detai...or/A-p8272551e & https://www.servocity.com/html/560_l...ml#.VJcpBV4BNo) perform equally well as the AndyMark one and if they are legal according to the rules. If not, are there any modifications that need to be brought to the non-AndyMark actuators to make them legal? Thanks!

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by alexander.h

I was wondering if the other two actuators mentioned in this thread (http://www.princessauto.com/en/detai...or/A-p8272551e & https://www.servocity.com/html/560_l...ml#.VJcpBV4BNo) perform equally well as the AndyMark one and if they are legal according to the rules. If not, are there any modifications that need to be brought to the non-AndyMark actuators to make them legal?

See R18.

[alexander.h]

Originally Posted by cgmv123

See R18.

OK, so we would have to change the motor ... it's going to be possible, right? And is that all?

[alexander.h]

Originally Posted by alexander.h

http://www.princessauto.com/en/detai...or/A-p8272551e & https://www.servocity.com/html/560_l...ml#.VJcpBV4BNo

And does anyone have experience with these two actuators?

[nuclearnerd]

If you're planning to buy a different COTS electric cylinder and swap out the motor, you might also consider Bimba's offerings (you'll need to machine or print? an adaptor):

http://www.bimba.com/Products-and-Ca...tric-Actuator/

I can't guarantee these actuators will work well with CIMS. DART would have saved a lot of R&D, were they available.

[alexander.h]

Originally Posted by nuclearnerd

If you're planning to buy a different COTS electric cylinder and swap out the motor, you might also consider Bimba's offerings (you'll need to machine or print? an adaptor):

http://www.bimba.com/Products-and-Ca...tric-Actuator/

I can't guarantee these actuators will work well with CIMS. DART would have saved a lot of R&D, were they available.

OK, so I guess that we should just put the actuators aside for now and concentrate on other parts of the robot. And then when they become available again on AndyMark, we'll get back to them. Thanks!

[Dan Richardson]

Originally Posted by alexander.h

OK, so I guess that we should just put the actuators aside for now and concentrate on other parts of the robot. And then when they become available again on AndyMark, we'll get back to them. Thanks!

Thanks for the interest. We apologize for the delay as we had a slip in deliveries from some of our suppliers. The first shipment of DARTs is at AndyMark now and available for purchase. You can place your order here:

http://www.andymark.com/DART-s/540.htm

They will receive a second shipment on Wednesday, 1/14 and a Third 1/21.

AndyMark has been a great partner on this and the unfortunate slip in availability was on our end. We have a plan in place and hope to be able to keep up with demand.

[cglrcng]

I may be missing something here, please help me understand what I am missing. Question is "Are they legal on the 2015 FRC Robot?" Are they an actuator? Answer: YES. They are sold as a "DART actuator kit(s)", under the AndyMark Category of "ACTUATORS." w/ AM Part #'s in 2 different lengths.

I know Ri3D "Toat Ma Goat" used (at least), 3 of them on their Ri3D Robot (2 on the 4 bar lift, and 1 on that "magic" wheeled intake mechanism, and I see many smooth uses for them over the choice of pneumatics this year for really smooth control (and no backdrive), though limited in the allowable CIMs total, so a reasonable tradeoff in the drive motor choices...slow go & fine control is better this year anyway). I also suspect that robot will never actually be FIRST Competition Inspected...Am I wrong there?

I go to R18 and the title is "4.7 Motors & Actuators
R18 The only motors and actuators permitted on 2015 FRC ROBOTS include the following:" (Bold, Italics, Underline....mine).

Then I go to AndyMark as directed and the 2 Model #'s for the Dart Linear Actuators (both models), are AM-3072 & AM-3076. Neither are listed in R-18 of the 2015 FRC Robot allowable Motors & Actuators list that I can see listed in the box. (Logically, if it is a "motor or actuator," COTS or not, and it isn't in that list, we can't use it on our 2015 Robots).

I understand the CIMS attached in the pic (but are sold separately, as seen in the assembly instruction docs), would be legal as they are listed. True also, that it is not considered an "Electrical solenoid actuator(s)." So the lower in the box of R18 listed "actuators," does not apply. (If it did we'd all be in trouble since definitely more than 1" Stroke on both).
___________________________
Are they 2015 FRC Robot legal or not under R18? (What am I missing here folks?) I do not want to offhand say they are not legal, and people appear to be ordering them (second shipment due in 1/15/2015)...But I cannot find them there...And the key words that get me are right there in the R18 Title.

R18 "The only motors and actuators permitted on 2015 FRC ROBOTS include.....".

I like em', and I want to see iR3 Creative (Dart) sell a bunch (though I agree w/ some, $380.00 without motors is hefty compared to other choices that others linked to, though those would need to be adapted, and if Darts are not legal, neither would the others be if both are sold as Actuators, no matter the motor attached)...It is sold as an actuator or it isn't, and it's legal or it isn't. The recent Q&A question/answer was very specific....But it didn't say the Dart actuators are legal either...It just reitterated the, If it isn't an "Electrical solenoid actuator" in line with what is printed in the box under R18...It isn't legal" line.

I don't even think Q&A is going to answer the question of "Are the Dart Actuators being sold as AM-3072 & AM-3076 legal on the FRC 2015 Robot?" (outside of the "if it isn't listed in R18, it isn't legal" type answer).

I'd sure hate to see what comes down after numerous purchases across our community at nearly $400.00 a pop each if they are later...Never Mind...I don't even want to go there...I hope I am blind and just not seeing something that is really listed in that box, or there is some unwritten rule I'm missing, because it is sold as "a kit" and we are considered "fabricating by assembling" & attaching a legal motor to an actuator that makes it legal or something...HELP PLEASE?

Am I just "lawyering" R18? (Still learning the design & materials choice phase here). Yes...A pneumatic cylinder is also an actuator, but it isn't electric....I'll just shut up here.....Lol. (Cough!)

[cglrcng]

Dan....Please don't take the above as unkind words in any way, I come to CD to learn. If they are COTS, and they are legal this year, then I just expected them to be on the R18 list, as I would the Bimba ones (with the proper motors of course). Beyond the fact that I like them.

And if they are allowed, I certainly hope you sell a ton of them as it is always great to see sucessful American mfg. businesses these days.

[EricH]

They ARE legal. As follows:

1) They are a COTS item (which are allowed unless specifically restricted).
2) They do not use an illegal motor.
3) They do not meet any other criteria for being illegal that I can find.

Trust me, if the only actuators we were allowed to use were the ones in the table, I could make a pretty darn good argument that pneumatic cylinders and gearboxes were also illegal--after all, both actuate something!

Try thinking of them as a gearbox that provides linear motion instead of rotary motion.

[MrJohnston]

They are permitted.... The game manual separates actuators from motors... Though I would expect the CIMs on the Dart actuators to count against the six...... I purchased a pair of the six inch actuators tonight.

[cglrcng]

Thanks guys. Like I said...still learning. (SIMS are COTS items also), but are listed...I expected to find them on the list too (or at least see the highlighted words added to R18).

R18 The only motors and Electrical solenoid actuators permitted on 2015 FRC ROBOTS include the following: Or, a line added at the bottom of Table 4-1 like "Motor Driven Actuators allowed if supplied and/or fitted w/ a motor listed in Table 4-1: Legal Motors above." Limited (see motor limits above).

And, the answer to someones question in the Q&A I read today, really confused me about these particular Actuators.

So all 3 of the others in the thread are cots items also...But, Dart has the 2 lengths 6" & 12" whipped because they need no adapting whatsoever to install your CIM and just go. Smooth.

Thanks again.

[Dan Richardson]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

Thanks guys. Like I said...still learning. (SIMS are COTS items also), but are listed...I expected to find them on the list too (or at least see the highlighted words added to R18).

R18 The only motors and Electrical solenoid actuators permitted on 2015 FRC ROBOTS include the following: Or, a line added at the bottom of Table 4-1 like "Motor Driven Actuators allowed if supplied and/or fitted w/ a motor listed in Table 4-1: Legal Motors above." Limited (see motor limits above).

And, the answer to someones question in the Q&A I read today, really confused me about these particular Actuators.

So all 3 of the others in the thread are cots items also...But, Dart has the 2 lengths 6" & 12" whipped because they need no adapting whatsoever to install your CIM and just go. Smooth.

Thanks again.

Thanks for the concern, it's always good to talk through the questions.

They are legal and you are able to use more than just the CIM motors on them. Mini - CIMs, Versa Planetaries and the AM Planetaries all plug into the DART to give you a wide range of motor options. The Ri3D 1.0 intake used a Bag motor and Versa planetary to drive.

I think what's hanging you up is the word "actuator," which is how linears are typically described. The DART by itself boils down to a packaged gearbox and lead screw. It is designed to use FIRST legal motors. It is a unique way to convert the rotary motion of a FIRST legal motor to linear motion through a mechanical device. It doesn't become an actuator until you attach one of the FIRST legal motors to it as is with all COTs gearbox solutions.

I believe the original question was not whether the DARTs are legal but if other off the shelf actuators could be modified to be legal. Teams have done this for years without issue. To do so, you need to find a product that has a solution for a similar power density to the motor you are trying to use and adapt a FIRST legal motor. The modified linear solutions must also comply with the other COTs definitions.

Lead screws have been used for years in FIRST and are even offered in FIRST choice. The DART simply offers an efficient and engineered solution to package them.

[cglrcng]

Dan,

I am more confused now than I was yesterday....I just read the FRC First Q&A Question(s) Q3 and a follow up Question of Q38 (Go to Q38 as both are linked there).

Just so you know, I did not ask the questions, a single team asked both questions. (I asked only here).

I cannot link them here, but, The (Q3) Original question was: Q. Are we allowed to use electric actuators that are not solenoid actuators? (1 follow-Up Questions) FRC4913 on 1-7-2015.

A. Electric actuators permitted for 2015 are listed in Table 4-1. The row that permits electric solenoid actuators allows any product that meets the listed specifications and is sold as an electric solenoid actuator. Published by GDC

Then...The (Q38) follow up question was the one that stumped me Huge.

Q. Thank You. But some electric actuators are NOT solenoid actuators (based on screw drived motion). Are they allowed in any size? Table 4-1 is not forbidding these. FRC4913 on 1-7-2015.

A. No, R18 specifies that "The only motors and actuators permitted on the 2015 FRC ROBOTS include" those listed in Table 4-1.
Electric actuators that are not solenoid actuators are not listed in Table 4-1 and are therefore not legal. Published by GDC

__________________________________________________ ______
Can you see now where I am totally confused folks? Please do not hate the messenger, Ok Dan?

They asked the question in a very specific way (used the word "drived" instead of driven), but enough detailed info to receive that straight answer.

If I were a seller or a buyer I'd be a bit concerned. (I was just looking as interest and attempting to look at them for something as a use outside of FRC actually, but then thought about use this year inside of FIRST FRC after seeing them used). The original Q3 bothered me, the Q38 really confused the crap out of me! And it still does.

I fully agree that it is just a gearbox. Somebody else though does not seem to agree, and they make the rules, I simply don't. (Maybe there is just a misunderstanding however). I also agree that the word "actuators" encompasses a ton of items that would be disallowed if all actuators, except electric solenoid actuators, were disallowed.

Good Luck my friend. (I hope AM and someone @ FIRST can help you with that).

[dradel]

Dan what is the thread pitch on the rod end of the actuator? we have a couple on order but Andy didn't know. Id like to order the rod ends so when the actuators show up i can get them functioning asap