2 Recyling Containers on one Stack

[Bob Steele]

Interesting Q and A today

Q55

Q. Can more than one recycle bin be scored on the same stack if they are both fully supported by the tote stack?

A. Yes, per Section 3.1.2.3, a RECYCLING CONTAINER is scored if it is fully supported by only scored Gray TOTES.

Discuss among yourselves....

[SenorZ]

Back to the drawing board...

[CalTran]

While it may be legal, is it necessarily stable? A container perfectly placed takes up quite a bit of space on a tote...

Edit: To expand, given that the top dimension of a tote is 26.9", and containers have a diameter of 18", that means that two perfectly placed containers atop a stack of totes leaves 4.55" hanging off each side, not including if you place it with the handles touch or anything like that.

[cglrcng]

Already tried and they balance just fine (as did 1 of the Ri3D Robots in a published video). WARNING: Just be careful what you do there concerning totes not going over the top of the backstop! As nothing above including that tote that does, would score anything. RC's & Litter only score if supporting Grey tote scores. Litter only scores if supporting RC scores...Transitional, but limited. RC's may reach above, just not grey supporting totes!

(This could be wrong below on the top example, as the uprights on the Field Drawings show those uprights at 77.83" High min. unassembled in the bases, minus 2" platform height= So at least nearly close to backstop assembled height of 76", so might be able to clear w/ the top assembled into the base. Lacking only about 1"~1.5" to be below the top (which if so, would possibly also score the top Tote +2/1 top capping RC @6 Levels More+4X6=24+6Litter or, +32=Total 44 Points, and the recesses in the totes may help there in reducing the height a bit of total stack between the 3 center sandwiched totes).

Someone with already assembled backstops already please fully check this?

Max. ht. without Grey Totes going over top of backstop=Approx. 78"? Or is it less? (Quick check~Team element drawings show it 78"-2" for the platform or 76" stack building height on platfor to top of the backstop).
_______________________________________
WRONG WAY Below! ("To the MOON" Stack).

1 Grey Tote 12.13" H (2 points), 1 RC w/ litter fully inserted inside below lid center rim 4 points X 1+6 29.0 H -St.Total 41.13 H(10 points),3 Grey Totes (they balance just fine) 12.13"X3=36.39" - St.Total 77.52" H (6 Points-2 points=Net 4 points, as that tote is above top of backstop slightly I think)....1 RC w/ litter inserted capping that, but must lift from lower and another inserting the middle totes from below (add another 29.0" St.Total 106.52" H, and neither the top RC or Litter would score, as it was sitting on a non scored Tote). Total points is only 16 points and a huge waste of resources and time.

{I} 0
[] 0
[] 2 ---Backstop Top DO NOT STACK LIKE THIS
[] 2 106.52" only 16 Points (Top RC & Litter & top tote do not
{I} 10 score as top grey tote is just above
[] 2 the top of the backstop).
____
16 (Could be up to 44 points if that upper tote ends up below the top of
the assembled backstop).


But, remove 1 of the center totes and it scores well~

1 Grey Tote 12.13" H (2 points), 1 RC w/ litter fully inserted inside below lid center rim 4 points X 1 Level+6 29.0 H -St.Total 41.13 H(10 points), add 2 Grey Totes (they balance just fine) 12.13"X2=24.26" - St.Total 65.39" H (4 Points, and that tote is below top of backstop slightly, but just misses level 6)....1 RC w/ litter inserted capping that 4X5 levels (20+6=26 points) 29.0 H St. Total 94.39" H (lower than a 6 tote & 1 RC cap of 100" average) Total 42 Points scored= (3 Totes, 2 RC's, 2 Litter used).

Regular Max. Stack 100" 6 Totes plus 1 RC+Litter Cap= Points 6X2=12 Totes+RC 4X6=24+Litter=6 =Total 42 Points (But remember the stack height difference is almost 6" shorter (actual=100"~94.39"-Difference 5.61" lower.

{I} 26
[] 2 DO STACK LIKE THIS
[] 2 94.39" Tall~ Full 42 Points (Top RC & Litter & top tote do
{I} 10 (Regular Stack is 100") score as top grey tote is just below
[] 2 (and still only scores 42) the top of the backstop). Stack ____ is shorter than 6 tote/RC/Litter cap.
42 Points




Use only if you have an abundance of RC's, and partners have lower stacking abilities, and it is much better than having Litter in RC's hanging around on the floor, or the scoring platforms alone waiting to cap stacks (Each of those could end up netting you minus -4 points a pc. if you run out of time due to the Unprocessed Litter Penalty). If you load Litter into an RC early, always put it onto a Grey Tote and onto a scoring platform away from where stacks are being built....It scores if on that grey tote, and you can always lift tote and RC together w/ Litter to cap a stack later. Risk is an alliance member (or worse yourself), knocking it down though.

NOTE: While litter completely inside of an RC is more troublesome for scoring by Ref's (wouldn't be easily seen), and tougher for Field Reset Crews to retrieve from them, not really that hard though (reach in and feel around and fish out), as long as they both know which container it's in (and harder to get in there, to say the very least)...It is both possible and legal and does not damage or tie in any way the Litter & or the RC, but watch that newly added tape now in doing so on the complete Litter insertion into that RC, as removing the tape is against the newly revised Litter rules...LOL).

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by CalTran

While it may be legal, is it necessarily stable? A container perfectly placed takes up quite a bit of space on a tote...

Edit: To expand, given that the top dimension of a tote is 26.9", and containers have a diameter of 18", that means that two perfectly placed containers atop a stack of totes leaves 4.55" hanging off each side, not including if you place it with the handles touch or anything like that.

_____________________
This method actually makes for better starting stacks at the top, wedges the first stack in between the backstop and the first 6 tote stack and makes better and more stable start allowing 2 can toppers that are offset in height where RC's are wider.

Note*:Move the top 2 rows over until they justify right....I can't do it editing.
{I}{I}{I}
I [][][][][] Backstop Top----------
I{I}[][][][][]
I[] [][][][][]
I[] [][][][][] 1st 2 RC's wedged into backstop by 2nd and 5th rows of 2nd tight stack.
I{I}[][][][][]
I[] [][][][][]_____________________ Scoring platform
Height= 1st stack 94.5", All 5 others are 100" =5.5" diff. (clears RC rim).
Points= 42+42+12+42+12+42=192 (33 Totes, 5 RC's, 5 Litter).

{I} RC w/ Litter
[] Grey Tote
I alone=Backstop
(You can really only cap every other stack if stacked tight together). RC's are wider @ top.

NOW, get busy on the other scoring platform....LOL!

* Not perfect, but you can get the idea \_/ probably better for RC's.

Yes, you can space them out further and score 42 points a stack max., but hit 1 and knock it over, and the entire wall of Jericho can come tumbling down, stack em', pack em' & rack em' tight, they will suffer hits and keep standing better. ....That, and you are only absolutely assured 3 RC's anyway (competing for 4 more).

[cglrcng]

That backstop (If rich in RC's of course), can be your friend, IF YOU USE IT!

[Whippet]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

That backstop (If rich in RC's of course), can be your friend, IF YOU USE IT!

If the recycling container is resting/leaning on the backstop, I don't think that it will be fully supported by the stack as required by the rules.

[mackenzieg]

Originally Posted by Whippet

If the recycling container is resting/leaning on the backstop, I don't think that it will be fully supported by the stack as required by the rules.

I agree. On page 21 of the manual, it says "A RECYCLING CONTAINER is scored if it is fully supported by only scored Gray TOTES." I could be wrong, but I doubt that points will be given if the containers are leaning on the backstop.

______________
Mackenzie Glaser
Robo Lions 1261

[cglrcng]

I did not mean leaning on or supported by that backstop. I meant stacked against it in the first column stacked. I rechecked the math.

A Q&A should then be asked in the following manner..."If a Recycling Bin is touching the backstop (in the first column stack next to the backstop, but not resting on top of said backstop), but is fully supported by standing upright & bottom flat upon stacked & scoring Grey Totes, will it still be considered fully supported (for scoring purposes), by said Gray Totes beneath it?"

The backstop is 78" high from the top of the scoring platform to top of the backstop. Start with 2 grey totes then an RC w/ litter down inside it, top w/ 2more grey totes....This level will be .08" under the backstop height at 77.52" if the totes are all upright and locked into each other properly, and cap it with another RC w/ a Litter in it (that makes the top RC score fully 6th Level). The whole stack ends up 106.52" plus Litter end sticking out of the top, and scores Grey Totes +8, 1 RC 4X2+6=+14, 1 RC 4X6+24+6=+30 Or Total Stack 44. Used only 4 Totes, 2 RC's 2 Litter).

Another way is 3 Grey Totes base+6, 1 RC+ Litter inside (Level 3) 4X3=+12+6Litter=+18, 1 Grey Tote+2, 1 RC + Litter inside (Level 6) 4X6=+24+6 Litter=+30, Total scored 56! (Used 4 Totes, 2 RC's 2 Litter). Stack height is the same 106.52" No Grey Tote above the 78" backstop.

If the answer to the above Q&A question is "NO".

Then you build a normal 6 Tote/Capped stack against the backstop (Total score 42), then use the formula right above this (3 Tote, 1 RC +L down in can, 1 Tote, 1 RC+L Total score 56 points (that stack 2 sits 6-1/2" higher, so it is easier to fit them in anyway, since the RC's are no longer at the same level, rim to rim/lid to lid, and fit together much better that way).

First 2 stacks score together a Total of 98 points using just 10 Grey Totes, 3 RC's and 3 Litter. Then follow up w/ the same pattern (6 & a capper +42, and the other 3RC, 4 Tote for another 98)....You are only 4 columns wide and have used up 6 RC's, 20 Totes, 6 Litter, and gained 196 points w/ a tight 4 column stack~Less risks of falling). And you can still see 3/4's of the field in the middle and to the right.

Then all 3 robots move to the right closer scoring zone, stack every Grey tote you can in the other scoring zone fast and tight into a tight wall (that is the easier part), and stay away from that packed scoring higher value zone. Get away from those Totes with 5 seconds to go. Forget that last 2 pointer fool! (unless it is the Playoffs & Finals).

It surely all depends on who wins the shelf RC battles always. Still have RC cappers?...Use them up lastly on other scoring zone, but getting those RC stack cappers at differing heights will much help (that lid and rim makes it difficult to cap 6 high stacks right next to each other whether lifting low or high when they are same exact heights). Capping every other stack is easier.

But, if they allow the 2 RC's as per the Q&A answer (and you are very rich in RC's of course)....You cannot pass up that 56 point stack.
_________________________
Anyone think if they have 6 RC's, that they will be able to successfuly build 6 or more full on capped 6 high stacks, and do co-op, and clear noodles and gain the full 6X42 points=252 in the alloted time of Teleop only? And none of the 3 bots knocking down your own stacks at the same time? Good luck.

If so...I'm looking forward to seeing that.
___________________________

I wouldn't want anyone driving across a scoring platform after capped 3 capped columns. Too much work to risk there as you bounce and slide around rushing.

Personally I would rather be working on just final grey tote stacks~ With all 3 bots, when the match ending buzzer happens building from 2 different sides (1from the Landfill, 1 from each Human Zone Area, far from our already built expensive point stacks, risking only loss of the cheap stacks, not the expensive RC/Litter containing ones. (Points lost risk is much lower then if robots are in any way touching them after the buzzer). Lose an 2~12 pointer stack ouch, but, so what...Lose a 42 pointer stack...Big OUCH!

Max Grey Totes you each have access to is 58~70 depending on who wins the step battles (some of those will be upside down which is trickier to handle, PU, and stack (But even if you cannot turn it over, push it, push it real good!), and how fast Humans feed the field decently w/ flat upright Totes.

If you can just build a 6 high wall in zone 2 (6 highX6 wide) -36 totes are used 36X2=72 more points~Using all but 2 of your guaranteed avail. totes...I'd be shocked if they are all used even once by 1 side never mind 2 sides unless there is one or 2 building throughout Auto period also.

196+72=268 (and relies on you winning the the step war by 3/4 RC's avail. plus not winning any Totes from the step at all, & using all but 2 avail. Totes on or off the field). And doing that all in 2.50 Minutes Total including Auto.

It will be a rare breed "Super Auto Couple" that can dance alone & between the 2, can do the "Auto Yellow Tote Stack and the RC Set, and both be in the Auto Zone for 2/3rd's of the robot set too, w/ a 3rd. Auto Grey Tote stacker, that is also a "super thief" too, that can also dash back for the Robot Set after playing that superman role to the hilt. He sets a 4~6 stacker at the same time of course! Lol.

This game has a million strategy ways to go. Many underestimated the game.

OK, another conflicting Q&A concerning that just arrived I'm told by text...So, I'll post it and go read up.

[cglrcng]

OK, now we are getting somewhere...Read Q55 & Q105...The 2 do not actually conflict, it just appears so, taking all the info in (and IF both answers to both questions are correct), then it is harder to accomplish, but doable, probably 2 very careful robots working together on opposite sides of the scoring platform to accomplish the feat, but truly a work of art in the end), and would be something Frank sort of hinted at in his Note concerning TNA in the Update on 1-6-2015. I just had the formula wrong earlier. It is very fun to fish sometimes. But, we are fishing w/ licenses to fish, and doing so very publicly at least. (Pulling off the stunt is the real hard part).

Someone now needs to ask the question "If 6 Grey Totes are placed in a single column on the platform, capped by 2 RC's stacked on top of 1 another on a stack of transitive contiguous Grey Totes, would all score? (We already know that tote stacks end below top of the backstop level and 6 grey is shorter than the backstop). If the answer is NO, then both the Q55 & Q105 answers cannot possibly be correct, AND we NEED TO KNOW THAT is the actual case now). BTW, thank you to the Q&A askers of Q55 & Q105.

Saying the Grey are "transitive" must also mean the RC's are also transitive (if Q55 is correct), and are considered scored, and still fully supported by all the below "Grey Transitive Totes." That stack is a points killer if actually allowed. Puzzles are fun.

1 Stack of-6 Grey Totes 2*6=12, Plus 2 RC's (both are Level 6 Scorers, as there is no higher level available)2*4*6=48, Litter w/ 2 down in the RC's+12=Total 72 points in a single stack. (Big Wow!) It is the only combo left and still be able to score 2 RC's in a single stack, as Q55 says is allowed and still scores.

I just hope a mistake isn't called out on the answer given to Q55 eventually.

Not that hard to pull off really (but would take a bit of time, 2 bots working together with courage (I'd bet someone, at least 1 team will build a bot that could do it separately actually), stack 2 grey, load "down in" litter & stack 1 RC on top, move stack to platform, load "down in" litter again, stack RC on top of RC and lock bottom into lid rise, move down to 1st supporting Grey Tote (under the RC's), and raise stack up slowly leaving lower 1 on the platform (lock in stack) and carefully, allow Alliance robot to feed single or double stack in, always locking them in place properly, raise carefully again, rinse and repeat, until 6 high Grey stack is created w/ 2 RC Capper....Stack is now 129" tall instead of 100". Get away and go build elsewhere on other scoring platform.

Don't even drive over or breathe on or anywhere near that platform. If it is allowed...only do it near the center of the field, or better yet the platform nearest your driver station wall, so it cannot reach the opponents side of the field if you do mess up...Ref's are your friends. (Luckily that top 58" would be the much softer RC's as stack top is 1" shy of 11' high from the carpet).

Watch out for noodle throwers! You don't think they would be aiming for it? They could not possibly resist.

[cglrcng]

Remember....It does not say touching scored Grey Totes...It says "fully supported by only scored Gray Totes"....2 capped RC's on a stack of 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 Gray SCORED Totes on the platform properly, is "Fully Supported By only", as it isn't air holding them up.