Contested Containers

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

That's assuming an alliance in qualifications and possibly even playoffs is able to score more than three capped stacks. As stated by others in the thread, it really only matters when the alliances are very high powered and capable of scoring more than three capped full stacks in order to make a difference.

Having the Recycling containers on your side also allows you to cap non complete stacks as well. If you are with alliance partners that aren't capable of making a stack higher than 3, you can still maximize your points by capping and noodling all of the stacks. In fact, at lower levels of competition it may be more efficient to make 6 capped stacks of 3 than 3 complete stacks. Stacks of 3 are a lot safer than stacks of 6 when you may or may not have faith in your alliance partners' stacking/driving ability. This would also give you higher potential pool noodle points. Having all of the RC's on your side is an advantage no matter how you look at it. The only question is whether or not it's worth your time to go after them at lower levels of play, or if your time is better spent stacking.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

Having the Recycling containers on your side also allows you to cap non complete stacks as well. If you are with alliance partners that aren't capable of making a stack higher than 3, you can still maximize your points by capping and noodling all of the stacks. In fact, at lower levels of competition it may be more efficient to make 6 capped stacks of 3 than 3 complete stacks. Stacks of 3 are a lot safer than stacks of 6 when you may or may not have faith in your alliance partners' stacking/driving ability. This would also give you higher potential pool noodle points. Having all of the RC's on your side is an advantage no matter how you look at it. The only question is whether or not it's worth your time to go after them at lower levels of play, or if your time is better spent stacking.

The recycling containers only become a scarce resource once both alliances attempts to win three of them from the center step. Six capped stacks (even shorter ones) will be a rare feat, and seeing a match where both alliances want six capped stacks will be loch ness monster rare. For the vast majority of alliances, five containers (3 starting + 2 from step) will be more than adequate. Aside of finals matches against a powerhouse, the incentive to acquire more containers from the step than you can successfully cap is low*, generally lower than spending that time and effort scoring more points via totes.


*There are other hypothetical scenarios in which denying points may be beneficial, but they will prove to be even more rare

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

The yellow totes starting positions are asymmetric if you choose not to place them on the field. I.e. they are behind the glass in the alliance station.

How interesting. I hadn't even noticed this. I can't remember an FRC game in recent history which has had an element that is assymetric like this.

This could have a marginal effect in qualification matches, but I'm still not quite seeing how it would have any effect in eliminations. The yellow totes can not be used for coopertition in elims, and all alliance members must stay behind the starting line in auto, so you wouldn't be able to load the yellow totes into any robots for auto. What am I missing?

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The recycling containers only become a scarce resource once both alliances attempts to win three of them from the center step. Six capped stacks (even shorter ones) will be a rare feat, and seeing a match where both alliances want six capped stacks will be loch ness monster rare. For the vast majority of alliances, five containers (3 starting + 2 from step) will be more than adequate. Aside of finals matches against a powerhouse, the incentive to acquire more containers from the step than you can successfully cap is low*, generally lower than spending that time and effort scoring more points via totes.


*There are other hypothetical scenarios in which denying points may be beneficial, but they will prove to be even more rare

Also take into consideration that the 2 inside RC's are arguably easier to get than the outside RC's. Denying a team those forces them to take the effort of getting to the outside RC's if they require more than 3 for their strategy. I might just have high hopes but I believe it will not be unheard of for a qualification alliance to utilize more than 3 RC's. I believe having the functionality to retrieve the RC's from the step offers at least enough value to warrant the weight of the mechanism.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Acquiring the RC's from the step may not be all that critical in some qualification matches, but it will be imperative during playoffs. You may not put all of them to good use once you have them, but that is a better problem to have than needing them only to find that your opponents already got them. You don't need to have stacks of 5 or 6 totes to make it worth having them capped with RCs. You can't afford to wait until you are good enough to "need them" before you equip yourself to do it. The prudent thing is to show up equipped with a mechanism to get them - quickly.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

How interesting. I hadn't even noticed this. I can't remember an FRC game in recent history which has had an element that is assymetric like this.

The Kinect stations in 2012 were also asymmetric.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Gregor

The Kinect stations in 2012 were also asymmetric.

You're right, I should have remembered that since my team was one of the few that actually used the Kinect station.

[cglrcng]

Caleb Sykes said....

"....and all alliance members must stay behind the starting line in auto, so you wouldn't be able to load the yellow totes into any robots for auto. What am I missing?"
__________________________

Caleb Sykes....You need to read the Q&A immediately from Question 1, through to the most recent Question & Answer. During Auto Period...Drivers, need to stay behind the line, Coaches cannot touch any game pcs., but... Drivers and HP's can start moving things around (as long as those drivers do not cross the line of course), and HP's can cross even in AUTO into their HP Zones and start Tote Loading, just not Litter Loading. It should make for a very interesting Auto Period.

I see really close walls being built right around the HP's in their Zones during Auto. (Now figure out how to move 30 Totes, +any Yellows placed there, during Auto up nearer your 2/3 Human Player Zones). Oh, isn't FIELD RESET just going to love that every match.

READ THE RULES, read them again, read ALL the updates, delete all downloaded old Rules copies, & download a fresh copy of the rules after every set of updates (then read the rules again w/ the Updates applied), read every Q&A and refer back to questions as called out every time one is in the Q&A...Things constantly change. (Oh, and most importantly, forget everything you know from previous games!) Then ask Q&A questions if necessary, or something cannot be understood.

Good Luck!

[Munchskull]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

Caleb Sykes said....



Caleb Sykes....You need to read the Q&A immediately from Question 1, through to the most recent Question & Answer. During Auto Period...Drivers, need to stay behind the line, Coaches cannot touch any game pcs., but... Drivers and HP's can start moving things around (as long as those drivers do not cross the line of course), and HP's can cross even in AUTO into their HP Zones and start Tote Loading, just not Litter Loading. It should make for a very interesting Auto Period.

Could you site which rule/Q&A question that allows you to move totes onto the field in Auto. I am having trouble finding it.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

Caleb Sykes....You need to read the Q&A immediately from Question 1, through to the most recent Question & Answer. During Auto Period...Drivers, need to stay behind the line, Coaches cannot touch any game pcs., but... Drivers and HP's can start moving things around (as long as those drivers do not cross the line of course), and HP's can cross even in AUTO into their HP Zones and start Tote Loading, just not Litter Loading. It should make for a very interesting Auto Period.

Good Luck!

cglrcng, I am fairly positive that Caleb has read, and reread, and rereread all Q&A's. I have also read, and reread all Q&A's and updates. Could you please site the Q&A you are referring to? This one directly refutes what you are saying.

[itsjustmrb]

Q27 Q. Can a human player move litter or totes during Auto? If yes, can human players cause litter or totes to enter a human player zone during Auto as long as said player doesn't cross the starting line?

FRC0095 on 2015-01-07 | 35 Followers
A. There are no rules that prevent HUMAN PLAYERS from moving TOTES or LITTER once a MATCH begins (even in AUTO) or moving TOTES or LITTER in to the HUMAN PLAYER Zone, provided no one from the DRIVE TEAM crosses the STARTING LINE.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by itsjustmrb

Q27 Q. Can a human player move litter or totes during Auto? If yes, can human players cause litter or totes to enter a human player zone during Auto as long as said player doesn't cross the starting line?

FRC0095 on 2015-01-07 | 35 Followers
A. There are no rules that prevent HUMAN PLAYERS from moving TOTES or LITTER once a MATCH begins (even in AUTO) or moving TOTES or LITTER in to the HUMAN PLAYER Zone, provided no one from the DRIVE TEAM crosses the STARTING LINE.

Thanks itsjustmrb, I think that's the Q&A that confused cglrcng. HUMAN PLAYERS can push TOTES or LITTER in to the HUMAN PLAYER Zone, they just can't physically cross the STARTING LINE themselves. Since per the glossary, the DRIVE TEAM consists of "one (1) COACH, two (2) DRIVERS, and one (1) HUMAN PLAYER," and Q27 specifically says "no one from the DRIVE TEAM crosses the STARTING LINE."

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

Also take into consideration that the 2 inside RC's are arguably easier to get than the outside RC's.

They are considerably easier to acquire. For starters, they are close enough to one another such that a robot will be able to secure them simultaneously without a complicated (and likely flimsy) extension. Second, there is a "lane" of open carpet leading directly to the Step, presumably to make it more likely for teams to earn Coopertition points.

[JesseK]

I've had to re-iterate this to the veteran mentors on my team, since they're so used to the frame of mind that a low-scoring 'win' could be successful in prior years. That mindset won't even make it out of QF's this year.

10 Quals, 2 QF's, 3SF's, 2-3 Finals = 18 matches potentially at the average event.
The competitiveness of the containers isn't what matters for 15 / 18 matches, only the raw score of our own alliance. If the "opponents" want to get those containers to just keep them away from us, let them waste their time. We'll just stack our 3 RC's on a bigger stack with a less cluttered field.

It should really be emphasized that an entire robot should not focus on a strategy that only plays out 16% of the time for only (on average 6 / 50) 12% of teams. The strategy only works before finals if the alliance uses those containers. Given some of the discussions I've seen/heard, there is so little emphasis on what to do after the RC's are acquired, or even where to put them so they're out of the way of stacking.

Getting to the containers on the step in a controlled manner and getting a single container from the step in a controlled manner is much more valuable long-term than something that "wrangles" 4 at a time back to the alliance all willy-nilly.

[bowmanb]

Our bot can already build a stack of 6 from the load station as fast as our human can feed them. We are definitely NOT an elite team, so I see stacking from the chutes as being a lot faster than this discussion is accounting for. If just one of our partners can handle the RC bins (pick them up, get them noodled and place them on a short stack) then we will be able to use all the bins we can get.