How is possession determined in regards to resources open to both sides?

[IronicDeadBird]

Not seeing a rule that dictates what happens when two robots are at a recycling bin and are attempting to grab onto it. Is it first come first serve? Tug o War? Rock, paper, Scissors?

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

Not seeing a rule that dictates what happens when two robots are at a recycling bin and are attempting to grab onto it. Is it first come first serve? Tug o War? Rock, paper, Scissors?

I would suggest changing the name of the thread to be more detailed.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

I would suggest changing the name of the thread to be more detailed.

That better I feel like now its too complex but the question still stands.
Two robots roll up to a tote on the step at the same time, how is it determined which side gets it?
I mean if I'm touching it first is the rule why not just make a robot that barely touches all totes on the step is well within the frame constraints (or lack there of).

[Alan Anderson]

I don't see a rule that grants possession to a robot based on anything other than its ability to take possession.

[Taylor]

I'm envisioning it'll be like a football scrum. As long as any skullduggery isn't obvious, let the strongest robot win!

[JesseK]

In 2010 & 2011 it was determined by the robots on the field. A bot could literally steal the tube or soccer ball from the opponent's roller claw and get away with it, even after the tube was in the air. It caused many a deflated tube in 2011.

Another question is what happens if both go after a RC, both grip but slip out, causing the RC to fall on one of the sides. Is a penalty assessed, and to whom?

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by JesseK

In 2010 & 2011 it was determined by the robots on the field. A bot could literally steal the tube or soccer ball from the opponent's roller claw and get away with it, even after the tube was in the air. It caused many a deflated tube in 2011.

Another question is what happens if both go after a RC, both grip but slip out, causing the RC to fall on one of the sides. Is a penalty assessed, and to whom?

I've been mulling basically the same thing....
We have a decent drive train and a pretty strong "grabbing" device... I could picture us grabbing a recycling bin off the step at about the same time (or just after?) a rather top-heavy robot on the other side and dragging both the recycling bin and the other robot over... Would we be penalized for this? Would they?

[FrankJ]

I've been mulling basically the same thing....
We have a decent drive train and a pretty strong "grabbing" device... I could picture us grabbing a recycling bin off the step at about the same time (or just after?) a rather top-heavy robot on the other side and dragging both the recycling bin and the other robot over... Would we be penalized for this? Would they?

I think this will largely be in the judgement of the referees. In 2013 (insert the usual caveat about applying different years rules.) robots were penalized for "tripping" robots with high center of gravity. So if it seen that your robot & drivers actively pulling another robot over even if you were primarily going after a game piece, I would expect you to get penalize. But I have consistently proven I cannot predict the GDC or the referees.

[MrJohnston]

Here is how Q&A answered a very similar question:

Q29 Q. If the actions of one alliance cause the other to violate G18, which alliance will be penalized? For example, if one robot from each alliance has a grasp on a container on the step and the blue alliance robot is pulled over the step by the red alliance robot while pulling on the container.

A. We can't answer your question as there are many different scenarios that could be in play. If the violation is momentary (i.e. the ROBOT is only momentarily in contact with that RECYCLING CONTAINER that is now on the opposite side of the STEP, but lets go quickly and retreats), then there's no violation and neither ALLIANCE is penalized. If, however, the contact is extended, the ALLIANCE with the ROBOT violating G18 will be penalized.

I'm not sure if I have a clear answer....

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Q&A

Q29 ... If, however, the contact is extended, the ALLIANCE with the ROBOT violating G18 will be penalized.

As I read this, you should not get into a tug of war across the step unless you are confident you will win.

[magnets]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

As I read this, you should not get into a tug of war across the step unless you are confident you will win.

However, if you are confident that you will lose so badly that your robot will get pulled to the other side of the field, you may want to consider playing defense while you're over there

[kmusa]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

As I read this, you should not get into a tug of war across the step unless you are confident you will win.

or at least know when to let go.

[IronicDeadBird]

Q. How far does an object (tote or recycle bin) have to be off of the Step so that the other alliance would be penalized under G18 for touching it? For example a recycle bin tipped on its side half resting on a tote and half resting on the step?
2015-01-21 by FRC0364
A. Imagine a plane extending upwards from the far edge of the STEP, if a ROBOT part crosses through that plane, it can't touch anything on the other side per G18. So if any portion of the object is still on the near side of the plane, the ROBOT could touch that portion.

Seems straightforward. Whoever wins the tug of war gets the object regardless of who was in possession first.
This does however mean if you designed a hook that hooks onto a tote or bin then that connection better be stronger then the guy on the other side otherwise you will have your debris crossing over to the other side of the step and that is not a pretty penalty...

[rpaulsen]

Unless I am missing something in the rules, I don't quite understand why this would be issue. Within the context of a game there is little reason for any two robots to fight over who gets possession of a tote.

In the case of two alliance members fighting over a tote, this just seems self defeating for both teams, as their cumulative score is the score they will record for the match. At such, fighting over possession of a TOTE simply wastes time where one of the teams could be grabbing another TOTE to increase both teams scores.

There are only two instances where I could see this coming into play with the opposing alliance. First is with Coopertion stacks, but once again it is self defeating for the two alliances to fight over who gets to complete the stack because all 6 teams get the same amount of points. It would be far more productive for all teams involved to figure out which robot will deliver the gold TOTES to the STEP, and then also decide which one of the 6 teams will complete the stack once it is on the STEP.

The second instance is in regards to the 12 grey TOTES that start the match on the step. I guess if both teams can clear all the TOTES from the LAND FILL required to reach the TOTES on the STEP, and go for these 12 TOTES at the same time this could be an issue. But that seems like a lot of work for both teams to complete in 2 minutes, when there are so many more TOTES readily available.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by rpaulsen

Unless I am missing something in the rules, I don't quite understand why this would be issue. Within the context of a game there is little reason for any two robots to fight over who gets possession of a tote.

In the case of two alliance members fighting over a tote, this just seems self defeating for both teams, as their cumulative score is the score they will record for the match. At such, fighting over possession of a TOTE simply wastes time where one of the teams could be grabbing another TOTE to increase both teams scores.

There are only two instances where I could see this coming into play with the opposing alliance. First is with Coopertion stacks, but once again it is self defeating for the two alliances to fight over who gets to complete the stack because all 6 teams get the same amount of points. It would be far more productive for all teams involved to figure out which robot will deliver the gold TOTES to the STEP, and then also decide which one of the 6 teams will complete the stack once it is on the STEP.

The second instance is in regards to the 12 grey TOTES that start the match on the step. I guess if both teams can clear all the TOTES from the LAND FILL required to reach the TOTES on the STEP, and go for these 12 TOTES at the same time this could be an issue. But that seems like a lot of work for both teams to complete in 2 minutes, when there are so many more TOTES readily available.

Most people in this discussion are talking about the 4 green recycling containers in the center of the field. They can be worth huge points to an alliance, and it's not unreasonable to expect some teams to go after these in autonomous mode when they are unable to stop and control their robots.