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  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 14:36
jee7s jee7s is offline
Texan FIRSTer, ex-frc2789, ex-frc41
AKA: Jeffrey Erickson
FRC #6357
 
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Blake View Post
But, what is _your_ model of what the team landscape looks like? You can't manage what you can't measure, right?
I don't try to manage it. That's not my job. I just try to support it and help those who want my help.

Regarding the measurement, quite simply, I don't try to measure it. I think that it is frankly impossible to apply rigid seemlingly objective measures to something so subjective as organizations of people and the relationships between them when they do not have identical goals and aspirations. To do so judges the "success" of a team based on what is collectively (or subjectively) thought to be "success." I'm very Ayn Rand on this point: The smallest minority is the individual, and I know each individual FRC team has their own goals for what they consider success. That's the great part about FRC, it's so big, so challenging, and so complicated that you get to (and rightly should) make your own definition for success.

Do I look at the teams with successful track records and rows of blue banners and hope to learn about how to make a better robot? Sure. But if I were to look at my own team's win-loss-tie record and judge them, I wouldn't be elated. Even if I tried to judge on field performance aside from WLT, I could certainly make arguments that we weren't a success because we didn't play every aspect of the game.

But, I can look at my alumni who visit every now and again and see how the team has impacted the career they have chosen. I've seen them come back and freeze in awe at our facilities today that we didn't have when they were on the team. I can look at our track record of teaching our students skills. There are all too many students I have dealt with who didn't know how to use a drill properly who now know a fair amount about design and fabrication. Are they engineers yet? No, but that's not what I'm after. I'm just glad that they got off on the right foot into a career that I hope they will find rewarding. (BTW, that career isn't always a STEM career.)

I can look at my team's contributions to the local FRC community and to the Manor and Austin communities. Just yesterday, I was modifying parts for one of our sponsors on our "new" 15 year old Haas Mill. We've been to the F1 track for events. We've been to Capitol Hill in DC, and members of our team testified before the Texas Legislature. We've gone from a portable classroom to a 3000 square foot shop and classroom facility. And, we did it without needing to pass a special bond measure. We've inspired at team (4610) to take on the FRC challenge fully, and they've inspired a team (5503) to do the same. Do you have any idea how involved 2789 is in TRR and the Austin Kickoff? All those social events in 2011, 2012, and 2013, the planning committee, the workshops, the Field Elements. Oh, and the President of the United States visited us. We didn't visit him. He visited us.

Do we have a Chairman's Award or Engineering Inspiration Award to show for this? No. Does that mean we didn't do it? No. Are we a success? I think so.

But, these are things I know because I'm on the team. There's more beyond what I'm mentioning here, too. However, I'm often surprised at teams, some relatively seasoned, who don't know half of what I just mentioned about 2789. I, therefore, as an honest thinker must conclude that what I know about a team from the outside is a mere fraction of what they are on the inside. For me, it's superficial and unfair to judge another team based on what I see. And for them to judge my team without walking in our shoes is equally bad, IMHO.
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2013 Alamo Regional Woodie Flowers Finalist Award Winner
2012 Texas Robot Roundup Volunteer of the Year
Texas Robot Roundup Planning Committee, 2012-present
FRC 6357 Mentor, 2016-
FRC 2789 Mentor, 2009-2016 -- 2 Golds, 2 Silvers, 8 Regional Elimination Appearances

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FLL Mentor 2006
FRC 619 Mentor 2002
FRC 41 Student 1998-2000

Last edited by jee7s : 22-01-2015 at 14:47.
  #62   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 14:51
cadandcookies's Avatar
cadandcookies cadandcookies is offline
Director of Programs, GOFIRST
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsegrest View Post
Just curious, why by 2017?
On a broader scale, I think 2017 is also the timeframe that a decent amount of other regions are either looking at or being encouraged to look at for their own district rollouts, so pushing it back past that might end up with Texas behind the curve of other regions (if the rumors I've been hearing are accurate).
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  #63   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 15:06
Michael Blake's Avatar
Michael Blake Michael Blake is offline
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by jee7s View Post
I don't try to manage it. That's not my job. I just try to support it and help those who want my help.

Regarding the measurement, quite simply, I don't try to measure it. I think that it is frankly impossible to apply rigid seemlingly objective measures to something so subjective as organizations of people and the relationships between them when they do not have identical goals and aspirations. To do so judges the "success" of a team based on what is collectively (or subjectively) thought to be "success." I'm very Ayn Rand on this point: The smallest minority is the individual, and I know each individual FRC team has their own goals for what they consider success. That's the great part about FRC, it's so big, so challenging, and so complicated that you get to (and rightly should) make your own definition for success.

Do I look at the teams with successful track records and rows of blue banners and hope to learn about how to make a better robot? Sure. But if I were to look at my own team's win-loss-tie record and judge them, I wouldn't be elated. Even if I tried to judge on field performance aside from WLT, I could certainly make arguments that we weren't a success because we didn't play every aspect of the game.

But, I can look at my alumni who visit every now and again and see how the team has impacted the career they have chosen. I've seen them come back and freeze in awe at our facilities today that we didn't have when they were on the team. I can look at our track record of teaching our students skills. There are all too many students I have dealt with who didn't know how to use a drill properly who now know a fair amount about design and fabrication. Are they engineers yet? No, but that's not what I'm after. I'm just glad that they got off on the right foot into a career that I hope they will find rewarding. (BTW, that career isn't always a STEM career.)

I can look at my team's contributions to the local FRC community and to the Manor and Austin communities. Just yesterday, I was modifying parts for one of our sponsors on our "new" 15 year old Haas Mill. We've been to the F1 track for events. We've been to Capitol Hill in DC, and members of our team testified before the Texas Legislature. We've gone from a portable classroom to a 3000 square foot shop and classroom facility. And, we did it without needing to pass a special bond measure. We've inspired at team (4610) to take on the FRC challenge fully, and they've inspired a team (5503) to do the same. Do you have any idea how involved 2789 is in TRR and the Austin Kickoff? All those social events in 2011, 2012, and 2013, the planning committee, the workshops, the Field Elements. Oh, and the President of the United States visited us. We didn't visit him. He visited us.

Do we have a Chairman's Award or Engineering Inspiration Award to show for this? No. Does that mean we didn't do it? No. Are we a success? I think so.

But, these are things I know because I'm on the team. There's more beyond what I'm mentioning here, too. However, I'm often surprised at teams, some relatively seasoned, who don't know half of what I just mentioned about 2789. I, therefore, as an honest thinker must conclude that what I know about a team from the outside is a mere fraction of what they are on the inside. For me, it's superficial and unfair to judge another team based on what I see. And for them to judge my team without walking in our shoes is equally bad, IMHO.
Jeffrey... that's _awesome_ info about 2789, I didn't know that about your team!

So in my way of thinking I'd put 2789 as a Type-A team [UPDATED/changed to Type-B per Bobby Garcia's post below] - "A - Teams that are a _program_ with reliable and continual support and funding. Same as football and marching band."

And "A" teams have a lot of latitude as to what their activities and purpose for existence can be--hence the entire spectrum of team personalities that exist in these A program teams.

I'd _love_ 3481 to be a Type-A and to see what our personality would settle into, and we're incrementally moving there, but the bottom-line we're still Type-B - "B - Teams that exist because at least one adult _wills it_ to exist."

--Michael Blake
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Link to me on this new fangled-thingy called The Linkedin and help make me popular, or at least appear to be... ;-)
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- President / Founder - San Antonio Competition Robotics Alliance - SACRA 501(c)(3) nonprofit (2012-present)
- Executive Director - Sports-Competition Robotics of Texas Excellence - SCRATE (2016-present)
- Former-Head Coach / Founder - FRC 3481 - Bronc Botz (2011-2016) // C++ Beta Test Team (2012 to 2016)
- Former-Lead Coach (2013-2016) Former-Head Coach (2009-2012) / Co-Founder - FTC 4008 - Bronc Botz (2009-2016) and FTC 4602 - Bronc Botz (2011-2016) and FTC 6976 - Bronc Botz-Nano for middle-schoolers (2013-2016)
- Co-Founder w/Matt Blake - VEX VRC 3481z - Wonder Botz (2011) [for Physically or Mentally Challenged Teens] (2011-2012)

Last edited by Michael Blake : 22-01-2015 at 15:58.
  #64   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 15:47
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2789_B_Garcia 2789_B_Garcia is offline
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AKA: Bobby Garcia, AKA: #Catalyst
FRC #2789 (TEXplosion)
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Blake View Post
The last season things started to come into focus for me as to what is and what works in FIRST FRC and I've concluded that there are only 3 types of teams:

A - Teams that are a _program_ with reliable and continual support and funding. Same as football and marching band.

B - Teams that exist because at least one adult _wills it_ to exist.

C - Rookie teams that may become either A or B or die pretty quickly.

The key thing, I believe, for teams to achieve at least B status is some early support and guidance from Tier-1 and Tier-2 teams that can lead to them playing Saturday afternoon Elims _instead_ of sitting in the stands after early-packing their pit.

I believe that even making it to the Quarters changes a team's "chemistry" and leads to create passion and anticipation in the returning students and energizes the adult mentor(s) who have to _will it_ to exist.
I caution against making assumptions with viability and teams. Our team meets your conditions A and B, and as far as accomplishments, you can look at Jeff's post above. All that considered, our team folded 3, that's right THREE times between the start of this current school year and Kickoff, in spite of the fact that we had met conditions A & B, and in spite of what we've been able to accomplish.

Every year I make connections with people on other teams that leave me awestruck when they tell me details about how their team operates, and that goes for both established teams and rookie teams alike. My experience has taught me that as many different teams as there are active, that's how many different sets of conditional statement situations exist for what makes a "type" of team, regardless of how big or small their team number is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Blake View Post
I think getting to State District model is a BIG priority--because it means more competitions for the same current single-regional $$ and provides more opportunities for these teams to play Saturday afternoon and have that positively affect the team's trajectory...
As mentioned previously, if all teams had to pay were registration, that's true...but when you factor in travel, food, lodging, those numbers look different for some teams...especially when it comes to paying for two events, and then possibly having to travel to a state championship, and then to world championship.

In all honesty, I haven't been a big proponent of the district model, or UIL for that matter. As it stands right now, my school is a separate school from the main comprehensive high school in our district, and our students participate in UIL programs at the other high school in our district. We have concerns about how the UIL situation would affect our team. In terms of the district model, I can remember scrambling to secure money for champs the year we qualified, doing two scrambles for two championships does not sound appealing to me, particularly after this year, in which we've lost teacher mentors and lost significant sponsors...I'm not saying that I'm out picketing, or threatening to throw all our efforts into another competition or anything like that, I'm just saying that I have legitimate concerns.

As with most aspects about this experience, the UIL & the Texas District model talk further confirm that while I love the FRC competition, I love the people in the FRC community more.
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I saw someone's signature on here say: "A good driver always beats a good robot," and I thought that was rather clever, so I'm using it as my signature.

2014 Texas Robot Roundup Winners (with 624, 118 & Pearland Robotics Pre-Rookie Team)
2014 Texas Robotics Invitational Finalists (with 148, 3735 & 3999)
2014 Dallas Regional Quarterfinalists (with 2587 & 5057)
2014 Alamo Regional Finalists (With 2468 & 148)
  #65   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 16:03
Michael Blake's Avatar
Michael Blake Michael Blake is offline
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2789_B_Garcia View Post
All that considered, our team folded 3, that's right THREE times between the start of this current school year and Kickoff
Bobby... I'm assuming then that this had to do with funding and/or lack of reliable support from the school?

I see you dropped down to 1 regional from your usual 2... that could hurt a bit, unfortunately.

--Michael Blake
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Link to me on this new fangled-thingy called The Linkedin and help make me popular, or at least appear to be... ;-)
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- President / Founder - San Antonio Competition Robotics Alliance - SACRA 501(c)(3) nonprofit (2012-present)
- Executive Director - Sports-Competition Robotics of Texas Excellence - SCRATE (2016-present)
- Former-Head Coach / Founder - FRC 3481 - Bronc Botz (2011-2016) // C++ Beta Test Team (2012 to 2016)
- Former-Lead Coach (2013-2016) Former-Head Coach (2009-2012) / Co-Founder - FTC 4008 - Bronc Botz (2009-2016) and FTC 4602 - Bronc Botz (2011-2016) and FTC 6976 - Bronc Botz-Nano for middle-schoolers (2013-2016)
- Co-Founder w/Matt Blake - VEX VRC 3481z - Wonder Botz (2011) [for Physically or Mentally Challenged Teens] (2011-2012)
  #66   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 16:20
Michael Blake's Avatar
Michael Blake Michael Blake is offline
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

In Texas, here's, in my mind, the teams that are Type-A... I'm purposely leaving some teams out--plus I don't know ALL the Texas teams' profiles... I'd like others to add to the list if they'd like to:

"A - Teams that are a _program_ with reliable and continual support and funding. SAME as football and marching band."

118 Robonauts
148 Robowranglers
457 Grease Monkeys
624 CRyptonite
1477 Texas Torque
2158 ausTINCANS
2468 Team Appreciate
2848 All Sparks
3847 Spectrum

Pretty sure I've got it right on these teams... anyone want to add some more teams?

--Michael Blake
__________________
"Retired Insurance Guy"

Link to me on this new fangled-thingy called The Linkedin and help make me popular, or at least appear to be... ;-)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/wmichael...ve_tab_profile

- President / Founder - San Antonio Competition Robotics Alliance - SACRA 501(c)(3) nonprofit (2012-present)
- Executive Director - Sports-Competition Robotics of Texas Excellence - SCRATE (2016-present)
- Former-Head Coach / Founder - FRC 3481 - Bronc Botz (2011-2016) // C++ Beta Test Team (2012 to 2016)
- Former-Lead Coach (2013-2016) Former-Head Coach (2009-2012) / Co-Founder - FTC 4008 - Bronc Botz (2009-2016) and FTC 4602 - Bronc Botz (2011-2016) and FTC 6976 - Bronc Botz-Nano for middle-schoolers (2013-2016)
- Co-Founder w/Matt Blake - VEX VRC 3481z - Wonder Botz (2011) [for Physically or Mentally Challenged Teens] (2011-2012)

Last edited by Michael Blake : 22-01-2015 at 16:31.
  #67   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 16:35
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2789_B_Garcia 2789_B_Garcia is offline
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AKA: Bobby Garcia, AKA: #Catalyst
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Blake View Post
Bobby... I'm assuming then that this had to do with funding and/or lack of reliable support from the school?
We lost most of the teachers that were involved with the program for a variety of reasons unrelated to FRC & our main sponsors changed their funding priorities with our school district and it hit us pretty hard. We still have solid financial support from our school as well as two class periods for robotics AND an entire graduation pathway/program of study built around kids getting the STEM endorsement for graduation based on the robotics program, but now it's down to just myself and a teacher on our campus, and the two engineers we've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Blake View Post
I see you dropped down to 1 regional from your usual 2... that could hurt a bit, unfortunately.

--Michael Blake
It hurt A LOT. We also had to back out of Remix at the last minute because that was one of the weekends our team fell apart. We lost several students over the course of all this, some of whom had been with the team for more than just a year or two.

...and all of this in spite of accomplishments, or support, or finances, or machine shop upgrades, or experience. This past year has taught me all too well just how delicate and just how strong our program really is.
__________________
I saw someone's signature on here say: "A good driver always beats a good robot," and I thought that was rather clever, so I'm using it as my signature.

2014 Texas Robot Roundup Winners (with 624, 118 & Pearland Robotics Pre-Rookie Team)
2014 Texas Robotics Invitational Finalists (with 148, 3735 & 3999)
2014 Dallas Regional Quarterfinalists (with 2587 & 5057)
2014 Alamo Regional Finalists (With 2468 & 148)
  #68   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 17:25
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rsegrest rsegrest is offline
@ least I'm OVER the rock THIS time
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2789_B_Garcia View Post
As with most aspects about this experience, the UIL & the Texas District model talk further confirm that while I love the FRC competition, I love the people in the FRC community more.
I agree completely and this is what needs to happen, honest and open discussion regarding both districts and UIL because the potential impact is enormous.

BTW, I am glad you guys stuck it out and made it through the hard times you faced. I can't imagine how I would feel if my team folded for reasons beyond my control...
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Unread 22-01-2015, 21:57
jee7s jee7s is offline
Texan FIRSTer, ex-frc2789, ex-frc41
AKA: Jeffrey Erickson
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by philso View Post
You mention "culture" twice in this paragraph. If UIL takes over FIRST in Texas, it would have to be with the understanding that the current "culture of inclusion" is maintained if not expanded.
Phil, you have far more confidence in the integrity and consistency of politically appointed competitive athletics organizations than I do.
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Texas Robot Roundup Planning Committee, 2012-present
FRC 6357 Mentor, 2016-
FRC 2789 Mentor, 2009-2016 -- 2 Golds, 2 Silvers, 8 Regional Elimination Appearances

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  #70   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2015, 22:54
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by jee7s View Post
Phil, you have far more confidence in the integrity and consistency of politically appointed competitive athletics organizations than I do.
Not at all. That was more a statement of what I thought would be good for the FRC community. We recently went through some silliness with the people who run the Houston YMCA aquatics program so I would not expect that UIL would be any better. My mother-in-law would say that many of these people "don't have enough to be in charge of" so they impose themselves on us.

I am sorry that we don't get to play with your team this year. Hopefully we can meet up at an off-season event.
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Unread 23-01-2015, 01:01
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2789_B_Garcia 2789_B_Garcia is offline
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by philso View Post
I am sorry that we don't get to play with your team this year. Hopefully we can meet up at an off-season event.
Likewise, Phil! We plan to attend as many off-season events as we can this year, so I'm sure we'll run into each other at some point!
__________________
I saw someone's signature on here say: "A good driver always beats a good robot," and I thought that was rather clever, so I'm using it as my signature.

2014 Texas Robot Roundup Winners (with 624, 118 & Pearland Robotics Pre-Rookie Team)
2014 Texas Robotics Invitational Finalists (with 148, 3735 & 3999)
2014 Dallas Regional Quarterfinalists (with 2587 & 5057)
2014 Alamo Regional Finalists (With 2468 & 148)
  #72   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-01-2015, 03:39
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Blake View Post
In Texas, here's, in my mind, the teams that are Type-A... I'm purposely leaving some teams out--plus I don't know ALL the Texas teams' profiles... I'd like others to add to the list if they'd like to:

"A - Teams that are a _program_ with reliable and continual support and funding. SAME as football and marching band."

118 Robonauts
148 Robowranglers
457 Grease Monkeys
624 CRyptonite
1477 Texas Torque
2158 ausTINCANS
2468 Team Appreciate
2848 All Sparks
3847 Spectrum

Pretty sure I've got it right on these teams... anyone want to add some more teams?

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Unread 23-01-2015, 15:34
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

As posted in another thread...

I know I am not the norm, I live in South West Texas, 150 miles from any other FRC team. We are 150 miles from San Antonio, 180 from Laredo, 230 from Austin, 350 from Houston, 350 from Lubbock and 430 from Dallas. The actual registration cost of the regional is not at large as the travel and hotel costs. I appreciate the grants we have receive, as they cover almost all of our registration fees. If Texas goes to the district model, maybe they will consider travel costs for those teams that travel longer distances, which require hotel, meals, etc. that local teams do not have.


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Unread 23-01-2015, 15:44
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjustmrb View Post
As posted in another thread...

I know I am not the norm, I live in South West Texas, 150 miles from any other FRC team. We are 150 miles from San Antonio, 180 from Laredo, 230 from Austin, 350 from Houston, 350 from Lubbock and 430 from Dallas. The actual registration cost of the regional is not at large as the travel and hotel costs. I appreciate the grants we have receive, as they cover almost all of our registration fees. If Texas goes to the district model, maybe they will consider travel costs for those teams that travel longer distances, which require hotel, meals, etc. that local teams do not have.


Mr. B
We're in the same boat. We actually had money to register for two regionals this year, thanks to some generous donations from our sponsors, but due to the travel expenses, it just wasn't feasible. Simply going to Dallas or Lubbock for a weekend with ~8 kids and three mentors already adds up to $3,000-4,000. I would hope that Districts would lead to more events per geographic region within the state of Texas, but with only one other Texas team within 100 miles of us, it seems unlikely at best. The extra travel expenses could cripple or destroy teams that are already struggling to get by.
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Unread 23-01-2015, 20:55
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Re: Texas Registration 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
...~8 kids and three mentors already adds up to $3,000-4,000...with only one other Texas team within 100 miles of us, it seems unlikely at best. The extra travel expenses could cripple or destroy teams that are already struggling to get by.
Same here. We (and one fellow local team) are just over 100 miles from Houston and almost 200 miles from Dallas. My team travels with 20 - 25 students. Travel and hotel winds up running us right at $4500.00 (this does not include mentor hotel rooms). Not sure what we would do about doubling the travel costs...other side of the coin is that we would get to participate in two events...
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