Practice Robots

[Robot Sans]

You might as well employ a VEX strategy where there is no stop build day because being able to change/test hardware components is one of the biggest benefits to making a practice robot.

[matthewdenny]

I don't think I was clear with my suggestion. This would have no effect on teams that still wish to build a practice robot. Rather it would allow lower resource teams to use their competition robot for practicing and programming only during the time between stop build day and their competition.while it's true that a practice robot would still give some benefit to higher resource teamsthis would allow the lower resource teams a benefit in programming and practice that they previously would not of had.

[Robot Sans]

yeah, i see your thought now, it does make sense but i doubt FIRST will allow this. I believe they are/should be recreating the real world as much as possible. This is seen in the implementation of the transport configuration, the hard challenges that come along with the game and obviously time constraints. By not interfering with the rules on practice robots they are keeping a real world balance where everything moves forward. Soon enough all teams will have a practice robot just like how now all teams have an aluminum driving chassis out of the box, which didn't exist before.

[mrnoble]

It would also allow them to break what they had built within the first five minutes of testing, and then be forbidden from fixing it. Except with "exact duplicates" of the part that broke. So it can break the same way again?

[IronicDeadBird]

God this horse is so dead and beaten it makes me want Taco Bell...
But whatever my 2 cents is that if students earn something, if students take that step towards a business and say "Hey we could use some money" then we should respect that. I can barely ask for extra ketchup at Mc Donalds and here we are asking students to go and ask for money. What you put into the robotics team is what you get out, and when a team puts that extra effort to have gear they have earned it and should be able to use it. I don't mean to throw shade at anyone but one of the patterns I notice is that this argument comes up during the build season when it isn't the most ideal time to secure financial resources. I wasn't originally on the boat of students working in the off season because I believe they should be able to branch out and do a lot, but now that I have seen the impact of careful use of the off season I would thoroughly advocate using that time wisely.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Robot Sans

Soon enough all teams will have a practice robot just like how now all teams have an aluminum driving chassis out of the box, which didn't exist before.

All teams will never have a practice robot.

[Robot Sans]

I don't think so. Robot parts are getting cheaper day by day. The quality of robots has visibly improved over the years...look at 2003 and now. This change is attributed to higher level resources being made more readily available. I'm sure there are companies if presented with Ariel Assist 10 years ago they could have made something to a similar quality of 254's barrage. Each year the bar is raised in general and one day it will be cheap/easy enough that every one can make a practice robot.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Robot Sans

I don't think so. Robot parts are getting cheaper day by day. The quality of robots has visibly improved over the years...look at 2003 and now. This change is attributed to higher level resources being made more readily available. I'm sure there are companies if presented with Ariel Assist 10 years ago they could have made something to a similar quality of 254's barrage. Each year the bar is raised in general and one day it will be cheap/easy enough that every one can make a practice robot.

There are teams out there that barely have enough funding to build a single robot out of plywood. The entry fee for a regional is $5000. Some teams will just never have the funding to build 2 robots.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by Robot Sans

I don't think so. Robot parts are getting cheaper day by day. The quality of robots has visibly improved over the years...look at 2003 and now. This change is attributed to higher level resources being made more readily available. I'm sure there are companies if presented with Ariel Assist 10 years ago they could have made something to a similar quality of 254's barrage. Each year the bar is raised in general and one day it will be cheap/easy enough that every one can make a practice robot.

I think stop build day will be removed long before even half the teams have a practice bot. Practice bots in general are a waste of time and money but as of now, it's a great way to get a competitive edge. As soon as huge numbers of teams start all having practice bots, FIRST will probably see that it's a growing waste of resources and just eliminate the need for them altogether.

[MrRoboSteve]

The practice robot doesn't need to be an exact duplicate of your competition robot.

Our practice robot last year was built from plywood scraps, parts from our parts bin, and well designed subassemblies that we withheld from the bag under R17.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Robot Sans

I don't think so. Robot parts are getting cheaper day by day. The quality of robots has visibly improved over the years...look at 2003 and now. This change is attributed to higher level resources being made more readily available. I'm sure there are companies if presented with Ariel Assist 10 years ago they could have made something to a similar quality of 254's barrage. Each year the bar is raised in general and one day it will be cheap/easy enough that every one can make a practice robot.

I'm not concerned about the cost, parts are getting cheaper all the time. My concern is with the student/mentor dedication required to build a second robot. Many teams don't even have the dedication to build one robot well, so there is no way, even if it were free, that they would be able to build two robots in one season.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by pandamonium

Even if you try not too things will brake and you would inevitably work on your robot.

Not if you were, oh I don't know, honest?

I have always viewed practice bots as an unfair advantage that only teams with huge resources could pull off. But this year I wanted to find out so we are giving it a shot to see if it is worth it or not.

So far we have spent $500 ($435 for a roboRIO) on it and some extra time. $500 is 1/6 of our budget so this is a big risk for us. We have a small selection of tools, a high school woodshop, three mentors, and 8 regular students that productively build. So far I can honestly say that resources are not holding anyone back once you have been doing FRC for at least two years. Aside from cash we haven't struggled to come up with any of the items that we have needed yet. And one new sponsor will cover the cost we have encountered so far.

As far as how I feel about the process, well, twice the work and twice the practice building seem to equal twice the experience so far. I'll let you know how it all ends up after week one...

[mrnoble]

We built a practice bot for the first time last year and it was a phenomenal experience, not at all a waste. We built two off season bots last fall, and are trying to get three drive bases done now. It costs money but the kids worked hard to get that money, and I think it is well spent. They have learned so much by building multiple bots.

Anyway, dead horse fer sher. I'll leave it to be debated. But I know the value and unless FIRST changes things I know what we will do.

[Chief Hedgehog]

If I were to try to figure out why my team made a leap like we did from our rookie season to our second season I would have to put building a practice robot down as one of the most important endeavors.

We are not a 'high resource' team - every dollar we bring in the students are responsible for. The High School offers no funding - just the Tech Ed Labs (as I am the instructor). The students are responsible for how the money is allocated and against my advice they decided to invest in a practice robot in year two. The amount we were able to learn was well worth the amount of fundraising and door - knocking we had to do.

Edit: Dang it! I got sucked in anyway!