Go to Post Searching is your friend - try it. - Katie Reynolds [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 9 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 10:13
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,113
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

As a mentor helping with the team's robot design and fabrication (and as a sometime Robot Inspector), I make sure I know all the Robot rules. The electrical rules are especially vital for my role as a Control System Advisor. I admit that the Game and Tournament rules are less important to me personally, as I'm not going to be playing the game myself.
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 10:40
RunawayEngineer RunawayEngineer is offline
Master Commander of All Things Tech
AKA: Ches
FRC #0801 (Horsepower)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Merritt Island
Posts: 66
RunawayEngineer is a splendid one to beholdRunawayEngineer is a splendid one to beholdRunawayEngineer is a splendid one to beholdRunawayEngineer is a splendid one to beholdRunawayEngineer is a splendid one to beholdRunawayEngineer is a splendid one to beholdRunawayEngineer is a splendid one to behold
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Dealing with mentors is tricky - it's a volunteer gig, so you don't have the freedom to demand much that they don't want to do. Respectfully handling disagreements is paramount.
I find the phrase "Show me in the manual where _________ " helpful when I am confident that the rules support my position. At the very least, it will reveal if someone is simply being bullheaded (they won't look in the rules, but will continue arguing). It changes the conversation from arguing on what you remember the rules to be to the actual wording of the rules. This puts you on the track to an answer, rather than on track to the better arguer.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 11:13
IronicDeadBird's Avatar
IronicDeadBird IronicDeadBird is offline
Theory Crafting Fo days...
AKA: Charles Ives "M" Waldo IV
FRC #1339 (Angelbots)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 958
IronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond repute
Also I need to mention that while I don't memorize the rules perfectly and don't read them or bother to read them well enough to memorize, what I do memorize is the structuring. When I need to know a rule I look it up and I am able to do so quickly. Generally speaking between that, keeping up with qna and, keeping up with delphi, and reading everytime I think I find a loop hole I eventually get to the point where I am famliar.
__________________
HERO 俺を讃える声や 喝采なんて 欲しくはないさ
I liked my team more before they stole my jacket.
Play is for kids this is serious...
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 11:21
Taylor's Avatar
Taylor Taylor is offline
Professor of Thinkology, ThD
AKA: @taylorstem
FRC #3487 (Red Pride Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA 46227
Posts: 4,599
Taylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

This entire thread bothers me.
If you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be designing a robot. End of story.
We hold the students to this expectation; adults should be held to the same standard.
Ignorance is not an excuse, and misinformation is worse than no information.
__________________
Hi!
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 11:44
IronicDeadBird's Avatar
IronicDeadBird IronicDeadBird is offline
Theory Crafting Fo days...
AKA: Charles Ives "M" Waldo IV
FRC #1339 (Angelbots)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 958
IronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
This entire thread bothers me.
If you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be designing a robot. End of story.
We hold the students to this expectation; adults should be held to the same standard.
Ignorance is not an excuse, and misinformation is worse than no information.
Which is completely valid but some mentors do not have the capability to sit down and read the manual in one go due to time constraints. Some students are incapable of reading the game manual effectively. It is one thing to read but understanding is diferent. The information in the manual is useless unless utilized and you can't use what you don't understand. For those mentors in this position my advice would be the same students do your best as long as that happens I won't give flak
__________________
HERO 俺を讃える声や 喝采なんて 欲しくはないさ
I liked my team more before they stole my jacket.
Play is for kids this is serious...
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 12:04
Navid Shafa Navid Shafa is offline
FIRST Hiatus/Retired?
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,525
Navid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond reputeNavid Shafa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

How I envision your mentors...

__________________
2015 & 2016 Fantasy FIRST Champions [Rotten Fruit Alliance]
Elgin Clock Award Winners: '13, '15, '16

Team 1983 | Alumnus, Former Mentor| Team_ 360 | Former Coach | Team 5803 | Former Mentor

"Once a Skunk, Always a Skunk"

Founding Member

Last edited by Navid Shafa : 26-01-2015 at 12:27.
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 12:13
TedG's Avatar
TedG TedG is offline
CAD, Design & Graphics Support
AKA: Team supporter and enthusiast
FRC #0133 (BERT 133)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Standish, Maine
Posts: 150
TedG will become famous soon enough
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
This entire thread bothers me.
If you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be designing a robot. End of story.
We hold the students to this expectation; adults should be held to the same standard.
Ignorance is not an excuse, and misinformation is worse than no information.
And yet here it is.
We all know that all mentors and all students won't/can't read all the rules.
Even if you think they should.

However, don't be arguing with those mentors or students who HAVE read the rules unless you can point to a rule that allows what you're arguing about.

Sometimes EGOs get in the way.
It's good to have a great idea, as long as you can back it up (with a rule or a proper engineering practice.. etc).
__________________
Bonny Eagle Robotics Team - BERT 133
2009-2010: Mentor, 2010-2013 Advisor/Mentor, 2013-Present: Mentor/Cad & Graphics Support

2010 - GSR: Excellence in Website Design
2011 - GSR: Motorola Quality Award
2012 - Mainely Spirit: Spirit Award, Human Player Award- GSR: Gracious Professionalism Award, Quarterfinalist- Beantown Blitz: Finalist
2013 - Mainely Spirit: Sportsmanship Award- GSR: Semifinalist, Woodie Flowers Award- PTR: Semifinalist- Beantown Blitz: Semifinalist
2014 - GSD: Spirit Award, 5th seed, Semi Finalists- PTD: 2nd seed, Finalists
2015 - Safety Animation 1st Place Award, PTD: Excellence in Engineering Award, 8th seed, Finalists, UNHD: Spirit Award, 9th seed, 6th seed Finalist Alliance Captain; Event Winner
2016 - NSD: Industrial Design Award, 3rd seed, Semifinalist- PTD: Excellence in Engineering Award, 2nd seed, Event Winner

Opinions expressed here are mine alone, and not necessarily of the team.
Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 12:34
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
VEX Robotics GDC Chairman
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,346
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
And tournament. At very least the Qualification Seeding section. It never ceases to surprise me the number of folks who don't understand what you have to do to seed high.
I can't stress this enough. The Tournament is always the first section I read. If your goal is to win an event, you need to understand what it takes to win the event. By reading the Tournament section you learn by what criteria teams are ranked and how matches are win. Once you understand this information, you can read the rest of the rules and start brainstorming strategies to maximize these criteria. FRC changes their ranking criteria regularly enough that it's essential to make yourself aware at the very beginning of every season.
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success
Full disclosure: I work for IFI and VEX Robotics, and am the Chairman of the VEX Robotics and VEX IQ Game Design Committees
.
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 12:53
JesseK's Avatar
JesseK JesseK is offline
Expert Flybot Crasher
FRC #1885 (ILITE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 3,695
JesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Unless reading the rules as a group is part of the original Day 0 activities, the rules can't be forced upon a mentor. Even then, many mentors simply tune out the strategy discussion and start envisioning devices to play the most obvious parts of the game. In my experiences on my teams and at competition, most mentors don't care about the rules until they hit them.

It's a double-edged sword - not knowing the rules removes the perception of what is "supposed to be" or "what the GDC wants", leading to more creativity or outside-the-box thinking. Yet not knowing the rules has a major impact on a team's success when everything comes together.

Each mentor has a role on our team, and is charged with being the best at that role. Even the build lead does not need to know every Robot rule in order to be effective at his role so long as he has people guiding him along the way. He has personally accepted that some of the things he and the students come up with will have to be modified to fit within the rules, yet that's the double-edged sword/fine line he walks. The student leads are also expected to know the rules that apply to their sub team(s). I fulfill the role of rules/strategy guru for the mentors, and the student leads have their responsibilities for doing the same within their groups (or cross-groups, for some of them).

I think it's important to remember that many mentors have active lives outside of mentoring, even during the 6-week build season. Find a way to work with them in a way that doesn't make their lives harder, especially during that time. Arguing is the probably worst possible thing to do, even if the student/other mentor is technically correct. The best way our team has found to do this is better communication via written drawings or typed documentation (or posting of phone photos of pencil drawings). Most ideas and decisions are compound and constructive on our team, leading to decisions with associated rationale. If someone was out of the loop on Day 2, then there may have been a lot of progress by the time the person returns on Day 3. We simply tell the person to read, follow links to rules, part sources, etc and then re-join the conversation. We have implemented this via an online forum & Drop Box ( maybe Evernote one day).
Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 13:03
Christopher149 Christopher149 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0857 (Superior Roboworks) FTC 10723 (SnowBots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Houghton, MI
Posts: 1,103
Christopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond reputeChristopher149 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
Has this information been made available? I remember Frank's Blog mentioning that they're working through the translation from WLT to QA, but I haven't heard of final results.
They've finished the district advancement structure, but they haven't published it just yet.
__________________
2015-present: FTC 10723 mentor
2012-present: 857 mentor
2008-2011: 857 student

2015: Industrial Design, Excellence in Engineering, District Finalist, Archimedes Division (#6 alliance captain)
2014: Judges Award, District Engineering Inspiration, District Finalist, Galileo Division

Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 13:22
MrJohnston MrJohnston is offline
Registered User
FRC #0948 (Newport Robotics Group (NRG))
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 378
MrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond reputeMrJohnston has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

OUr mentors spend so much time volunteering with the team (and away from their families) that it just does not seem right to demand that they all read the manual and know it well.

However, a working knowledge of the rules is absolutely imperative before robot design commences. Here is how we handle it:
1) We spend most of the first day after kickoff going through the rules and making sure we all understand them.
2) We encourage everybody to study the rules and require it of certain students - such as the drive team.
3) We have one mentor and one students who are the "rules experts." Their primary position in the club is to konw the rules inside-out and to study research any questions that might arise.
4) Before we design any part of the robot, we discuss both the desired functionality and any applicable rules as a group.
5) We nearly always have one of our "rules experts" on hand to clarify anything that might come up.
6) We make sure the mentor who oversees any specific aspect of the robot has a hard copy of the written rules pertaining to that aspect.

All-in-all, this seems to create a group of mentors who can spend their time doing what they love best (helping kids to design robots) who are knowledgeable enough about the rules.
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 19:01
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,748
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Long ago on my daughter's team we had a lead mentor who didn't read his email. I was so grateful for those who pasted the email blasts here on CD.
__________________
(since 2004)
Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-01-2015, 20:06
PayneTrain's Avatar
PayneTrain PayneTrain is offline
Q&A Dartboard Detractor
AKA: Lizard King
FRC #0422 (The Meme Tech Pneumatic Devices)
Team Role: Mascot
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: RVA
Posts: 2,259
PayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
I can't stress this enough. The Tournament is always the first section I read. If your goal is to win an event, you need to understand what it takes to win the event. By reading the Tournament section you learn by what criteria teams are ranked and how matches are win. Once you understand this information, you can read the rest of the rules and start brainstorming strategies to maximize these criteria. FRC changes their ranking criteria regularly enough that it's essential to make yourself aware at the very beginning of every season.
The longer you've been in FRC, the better this idea gets. You can read through the robot rules and start turning the wheels on some initial strategy ideas based on approaches you took in the past to a game that looks similar, only to realize how meaningless an approach to the game can be because how it wouldn't do squat for your position on the leaderboards. (2006 didn't have a little white bridge that held the same value as a win, iirc)
Reply With Quote
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-01-2015, 17:35
seg9585's Avatar
seg9585 seg9585 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Eric
FRC #4276 (Surf City Vikings)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boeing (Seal Beach, CA)
Posts: 520
seg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond reputeseg9585 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

We always have the exact opposite problem. All the mentors read the rules in depth, read all game updates and FAQs.

Only a small handful of students actually do (I polled the team in Week 2 asking how many honestly read the rules, only a few students raised their hands).

We sound like broken records when students keep coming up to us with ideas in WEEK 4 clearly in violation of rules and we just say "Can't do that, Read The Rules!!"
__________________
My FIRST legacy:

Team 204 Student 2001, 2002 (Voorhees, NJ)
Team 1493 College Mentor 2006 - 2008 (Troy, NY)
Team 2150 Intern/Professional Mentor 2007, 2009 (Palos Verdes)
Team 4123 Lead Engineering Mentor 2012 (Bellflower, CA)
Team 4276 Engineering Mentor 2012-2016 (Huntington Beach, CA)
Reply With Quote
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-01-2015, 19:24
orangemoore orangemoore is offline
Registered User
AKA: Roger Moore
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,309
orangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors Not Reading Rules

Everyone should read the rules. It doesn't matter who you are, a mentor, a student, or even a parent helping. If you haven't yet and you are at robotics, spend the time when you are in robotics to do so. There isn't an excuse to not have read the rules if you are at robotics consistently.
__________________
Stronghold


Student 2013-2016
3135 -- Robotic Colonels
3507 -- Robotheosis (FTC)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:32.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi