Human Player Strategies

[FIMAlumni]

With all the rule updates, it seems to me the GDC wants the HPs to load one Tote into the Tote Chute, open the door, repeat. This seems like it would take a fairly long time, 5ish seconds per tote. Has anyone thought of any good ideas to speed up this process? The only idea I can think of is to line 2 the totes up and push 2 through without letting the door close in between Totes.

[MrJohnston]

Can the two totes balance on the chute at the same time?

We are also concerned about the speed with which we can release the totes... Once we have a fully functional robot, we are going to play with some ideas...

*It might be best to just send a big pile of totes into the field so that the robots can pick them up at will. (Though I picture a disorganized mess of a pile of totes...)

* We are going to explore ways to use a two-person loading system. It would be a bit of a dance as only one can be in hte human player station at a time, but, at the least, each alliance will have an extra human player at all times, so it will be worth exploring.

[brandon.cottrell]

Generally I would discourage throwing pool noodles, but I'm sure you already figured that one out.

[JohnFogarty]

Why not throw the noodles? There are only a max of 7 you could score in containers.

[RunawayEngineer]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Why not throw the noodles? There are only a max of 7 you could score in containers.

Results are mixed, but it seems like it has a low chance of success and a high chance of introducing another obstacle for your own alliance.
Even if it isn't a hindrance to a machine, it can be an annoyance and potentially be a source for fouls (throwing them in at the wrong time or robot accidentally ripping one).
I hope that teams use practice day to figure out if they can do it and play accordingly.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by RunawayEngineer

Results are mixed, but it seems like it has a low chance of success and a high chance of introducing another obstacle for your own alliance.
Even if it isn't a hindrance to a machine, it can be an annoyance and potentially be a source for fouls (throwing them in at the wrong time or robot accidentally ripping one).
I hope that teams use practice day to figure out if they can do it and play accordingly.

With practice it is very possible to throw LITTER over the step at a high percentage. I'm sure my team is not the only one to do tryouts. Have your human player practice throwing for a few hours a week for the next month. You'll be very surprised at how good a skilled human player will be this year. Unfortunately, many of the teams will not do this and will barely make it to their own landfill on a good toss. Hopefully those teams will realize this and give their LITTER to a better player. If you're underestimating the value of scoring 3-5 pieces of LITTER for 4 points a piece which is very possible, you should re-think that. The value could be the same as 10 scored totes, and it will absolutely have an impact on seeding.

With practice you should not worry about causing obstacles for your alliance, as they should all at least reach the landfill. If you take the human player position just as serious as other positions on the drive team (you should) you shouldn't worry about them causing fouls. It is not a foul for a robot to accidentally rip a noodle either.

[Edxu]

From my understanding, there are no rules prohibiting Human Players moving game objects during autonomous, so long as the human player doesn't cross the starting line.

This means that the Human Player can start moving totes into the zone in autonomous by throwing them into the HP Zone, lowering the distance between cycles.

[Brandon Ha]

Originally Posted by Edxu

From my understanding, there are no rules prohibiting Human Players moving game objects during autonomous, so long as the human player doesn't cross the starting line.

This means that the Human Player can start moving totes into the zone in autonomous by throwing them into the HP Zone, lowering the distance between cycles.

I do not think their concern is with moving totes around the zones but the length of input through the feeding station. It will require some coordination becuase of the length of a single feed cycle. They previously stated and I will quote, " 5 seconds per tote" with only one tote entering and exiting at a time leads to only some 25 totes entering through one side and there may be teams who say that will never be good enough.

[RunawayEngineer]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

With practice it is very possible to throw LITTER over the step at a high percentage. I'm sure my team is not the only one to do tryouts. Have your human player practice throwing for a few hours a week for the next month. You'll be very surprised at how good a skilled human player will be this year. Unfortunately, many of the teams will not do this and will barely make it to their own landfill on a good toss. Hopefully those teams will realize this and give their LITTER to a better player. If you're underestimating the value of scoring 3-5 pieces of LITTER for 4 points a piece which is very possible, you should re-think that. The value could be the same as 10 scored totes, and it will absolutely have an impact on seeding.

With practice you should not worry about causing obstacles for your alliance, as they should all at least reach the landfill. If you take the human player position just as serious as other positions on the drive team (you should) you shouldn't worry about them causing fouls. It is not a foul for a robot to accidentally rip a noodle either.

I know that some teams will be successful at it, which is why I said that results are mixed. I was a HP for 2 years, so I am happy to see them shine: a HP that contributes 40 points a match would be shiny indeed.
I was just trying to summarize why some teams would take that position - I think that the best strategy is what you describe: make a great HP and get those points. If your Alliance doesn't have a HP that can do it, then have them be another set of eyes on the field to coordinate the teams.
As far as fouls go, unfortunately "accidentally" is a matter of Ref judgement, so that will vary from regional to regional.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

With practice it is very possible to throw LITTER over the step at a high percentage.

Not only do you have to clear the Step, but you also have to clear the other Alliance's Land Fill (otherwise, they get a point for being in their landfill). You really want to get it behind a stack of totes to make it even more difficult for the other Alliance to quickly move the Litter into their landfill.

[BitBlt]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Not only do you have to clear the Step, but you also have to clear the other Alliance's Land Fill (otherwise, they get a point for being in their landfill). You really want to get it behind a stack of totes to make it even more difficult for the other Alliance to quickly move the Litter into their landfill.

In a robotics competition, with emphasis on STEM, why does FIRST even have an option for human players to score points? Seems dumb to work so hard for six weeks only to have lose a match because the other alliance could accurately throw a basketball. Pool noodles and qualifying based on average score make it a little more palatable, but it's still crazy.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Not only do you have to clear the Step, but you also have to clear the other Alliance's Land Fill (otherwise, they get a point for being in their landfill). You really want to get it behind a stack of totes to make it even more difficult for the other Alliance to quickly move the Litter into their landfill.

Yes, the goal is to get it across the opponents landfill zone, but the risk/reward is worth trying even if you're only marginally successful. The fact that there are no winners or losers of each match only magnifies that. If you land it completely in the opposing alliance landfill you give 3/60 teams at the regional 1 point (raising the Qualification Average at the regional by .05 points each match you do this). If you have even 1 inch of that litter extending past their landfill, you give your own alliance 4 qualification points.

Originally Posted by BitBlt

In a robotics competition, with emphasis on STEM, why does FIRST even have an option for human players to score points? Seems dumb to work so hard for six weeks only to have lose a match because the other alliance could accurately throw a basketball. Pool noodles and qualifying based on average score make it a little more palatable, but it's still crazy.

Hey, at least it's not like 2009 Lunacy, where the essentially the ONLY way to score points was by having your human player do it.

[TheStrategyGuy]

The Human Player Zone is still defined as an "area", thus not an "infinitely tall volume" similar to the Landfill and AutoZones.

HUMAN PLAYER ZONE – the area bound by the white tape lines, HUMAN PLAYER STATION wall and edges of the carpet

Thus, is it not technically possible for one Human Player (and/or Driver) to operate the chute door while standing OUTSIDE (yet reaching over into) of the taped area near the operator consoles, while the second Human Player loads totes into the chute.

As long as they are not simultaneously touching a tote (which is in contact with the chute) and the chute door, it appears at first glance this would be legal.

This would satisfy the following rules, as well as significantly speed up the loading process I would imagine.

G6-2 The CHUTE DOOR may only be operated by a DRIVER or HUMAN PLAYER.

G5 Only one ALLIANCE member may be in each HUMAN PLAYER ZONE at a time

Thoughts?

[petercooperjr]

Originally Posted by TheStrategyGuy

The Human Player Zone is still defined as an "area", thus not an "infinitely tall volume" similar to the Landfill and AutoZones.

I mentioned this in my thread last week, that I'd like there to be some clarification on it. (And that I'd send in a Q&A on it if I had access to that.) I suspect that most refs would call a person standing outside the human player zone loading a tote into the chute while another player was in that zone as a G5 violation, or perhaps even just give a card for violating the spirit of the game/rules. (And really the chute system is there for safety reasons, so you can probably ban just about any odd shenanigans on those grounds anyway.)

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by TheStrategyGuy

The Human Player Zone is still defined as an "area", thus not an "infinitely tall volume" similar to the Landfill and AutoZones.



Thus, is it not technically possible for one Human Player (and/or Driver) to operate the chute door while standing OUTSIDE (yet reaching over into) of the taped area near the operator consoles, while the second Human Player loads totes into the chute.

As long as they are not simultaneously touching a tote (which is in contact with the chute) and the chute door, it appears at first glance this would be legal.

This would satisfy the following rules, as well as significantly speed up the loading process I would imagine.

Thoughts?

My feeling is that the reason the human player zone is still an area and not a volume is such that other human players can pass totes to the human player in the human player zones, and similar tactics involving the other human players.

The intent is almost certainly not to allow for cooperative chute-loading between human players, where one holds the door and the other is loading it, as that defeats the purpose of the entire chute and chute door system.

I hope teams don't abuse this, because I could see the GDC re-defining this as a volume, thus rendering some other cooperative human player strategies illegal.