Ramming/ Pinning

[f22flyboy]

I define pinning as holding another robot against a fixed object so that they are immobile

I define ramming as repeatedly striking another robot, often against a fixed object.

Hypothetical situation:

After autonomous mode ends, team A (blue alliance)has knocked the central stacks into thier scoring zone, and is sitting on top of the ramp. Team B (red alliance) has knocked down a blue human player's stack of six and is sitting in the blue scoring zone. When the operator control period begins, team A heads directly for team B, and being a far more powerful robot, pushes team B's bot against the wall. Team A holds team B for about 30 seconds immobile against the wall while team B tries to break free. Then Team A's bot begins to ram team B's, eventually pushing one side of the drive off the field, permanently immobilizing team B. Team A continues to alternately ram and pin team B for the remainder of the match.

A couple of questions:

1. Do you think this is legal?

2. If no, what should I (or someone) do about it?

3. Is this appropriate?

4. What is your team's (driver's) philosophy on ramming or pinning another bot?

5. Should the same (rough) tactics used during a real match be used during a practice round?

[Gadget470]

1. Do you think this is legal?
- No, it's not, the pinning rule should have been inforced during practice rounds also. Teams shouldn't be practicing how to pin another team.

2. If no, what should I (or someone) do about it?
- Speak to a referee, ask him for his interpretation of the pinning rule. If you have your rulebook handy, cite a rule.
3. Is this appropriate?
- Yes it is.
4. What is your team's (driver's) philosophy on ramming or pinning another bot?
- Don't do it. Don't retaliate if it happens to you, when the match is over, either a) Talk to the ref, b) Talk to the drivers of the other team, c) both
5. Should the same (rough) tactics used during a real match be used during a practice round?
Definitly not, they shouldn't have been in the practice round either.

[illumanat'i]

1. No, no, a million times no.... i don't know the exact wording of the rules, but that would be extremely frowned upon if not illegal, and not be considered "gracious professionalism"

i think there is something on not causing intentional damage to the field or other robots

2. The refs will probably do something about it, but if they don't, talk to a FIRST official at the regional (or final), preferably one who saw the match, and ask that something be done.

3. no, no, no, and no

4. my team's view is pinning is okay, we never even though of ramming (maybe if they did it to us, but probably not)

5. yes, i guess... the practice rounds are used to test the robot's and driver's abilities on the actual field, the more like the match it is the better... and one would hope no one tried to take out or harm other robots during the practice

[sanddrag]

We do not intentionally ram. However with us having a fast powerful robot, you're going to get pushed into if you happen to be where we're going. We can also push our alliance partner up onto the platform if the need arises.

We will not beat down on any robot if it does not benefit our strategy. So for continuous ramming - absolutely not. Even when we do make contact, it may not be gentle but is is not nearly harsh. We never feel good leaving our opponent broken. We're all in this together in a gracioussly professional way.

[Gadget470]

Ramming isn't just contact. Ramming is Hitting, pull back, hit again, repeat. Or getting a running start and taking a shot at another bot

[Madison]

FIRST prohibits pinning for more than 10 seconds. After a referee counts out 10 seconds, the robot must back off 3 feet.

After that, the process begins again. If what is happening lies within those guidelines, it's legal.

[Solace]

is ramming against the rules? or is it just mean because it damages someone's robot?

The pinning thing seems black and white to me, but the ramming is a grey area. Having a wooden robot, we tend not to ram into anything as it will most likely do more damage to us than the thing we are ramming.

[f22flyboy]

Originally posted by M. Krass
FIRST prohibits pinning for more than 10 seconds. After a referee counts out 10 seconds, the robot must back off 3 feet.

After that, the process begins again. If what is happening lies within those guidelines, it's legal.

If a robot pins for 9 seconds, then backs up, breaks contact, and then hits again, and repeats, is that legal?

[Alavinus]

Yes, as long as they back up at least 3 feet, and then initiate contact again. Can you please reference the teams that you are talking about? Thank you!

[sevisehda]

Pinning and ramming are acceptable tactical moves a team can employ. The rules make it so you couldn't pin a team for the entire round. As for a team pinning you during practice that totally unacceptable. If someone is doing that definately confront them/judge.

Practice rounds are supposed to be cooperative. Rookies may not know how to act but in the past most teams discuss what they will do during the time. Many times it comes down to individual practice for a while then finish with a round or 2.

[f22flyboy]

we did confront the team, and they acted confused, apologetic, and generally very nice and polite. If not for the fact that we found out they lied about their bot to our scouters, I would write it off as a rookie driver without adult supervision (they are a vet. team). They have a great bot that I think is gonna be in the final alliance, and it would be a shame for them to get DQ's or even get a bad reputation, because of a irresponsible rookie driver.

[illumanat'i]

i could have sworn intentional damage to other robots was illegal, but i can't seem to find the rule.... did i just dream that rule into existance?

FIRST is not battle.bots, continuous ramming is just wrong, blah blah blah, don't do it, everyone happy, hurrah

[Katie Reynolds]

f22flyboy: Thank you for not mentioning the name of the team you've been having problems with in your post.

I don't think that ramming* is in any way part of the spirit of FIRST and Gracious Professionalism. However, like M. Krass said, "FIRST prohibits pinning for more than 10 seconds. After a referee counts out 10 seconds, the robot must back off 3 feet. After that, the process begins again. If what is happening lies within those guidelines, it's legal."

If I saw a team ramming another robot, it is safe to say that I would be disappointed in them.

- Katie

*ramming = repeatedly slamming into another robot with the intent of damaging the robot.

[Alavinus]

In asking f22flyboy to reveal the name of the team, I wanted to make sure his team was not offended at us as we were in a very similar situation with another team. They had a stack of six that they were trying to set in their score zone and our driver were praticing defense by blocking them from placing the stack.

[Brandon Martus]

Originally posted by Alavinus
Yes, as long as they back up at least 3 feet, and then initiate contact again. Can you please reference the teams that you are talking about? Thank you!

I would rather this be talked about in private, to prevent problems.