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#16
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Re: Programming for money
I am not sure how selling programing time is any different than selling extrusions or a swerve drive module.
Of course as other have said, it becomes a COTs item and needs to meet all the COTs item rules. Including it needs to be an established company & ready to meet reasonable demands of all team? If the team modifies the code it then becomes a modified part. Not legal for next year's robot? |
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#17
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Re: Programming for money
Quote:
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Last edited by notmattlythgoe : 04-02-2015 at 12:06. |
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#18
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Re: Programming for money
I don't this this need to go in the way of whether of not its gp, I know if a team needed help programming their robot or couldn't get their code working I would be more than willing to get their code working free of charge. And i'm sure I know a lot of other people would be willing to help each other out. I just think there are a lot of people that would be willing to do the same thing free of charge.
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#19
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Re: Programming for money
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On the other hand a literal reading of R11 doesn't address if the time is donated or paid for so maybe you are right. Only the GDC for future games knows for sure. ![]() |
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#20
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Re: Programming for money
IMO, it's a troll looking to poke at a larger subject which may actually have longer-term ramifications. I think the applicable rule which allows this is <R11>, as outlined in Example 1:
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Even if a team can navigate that, the considerations do not stop there. Professional consultants with 10 years of documented positive testimonials can easily get $75-$100/hr for a high-value client. College students who've worked closed problems for 4 years, more like $16-$21/hr (pretty typical for an internship). FIRST alumni who did FRC programming for 4 years could probably net more than $16/hr due to the specialty, but how much more given the total cap on robot expenditures? What regional ramifications are there for programmer pay - a programmer who's worth $100/hr in San Fransisco isn't worth half that in rural Georgia simply due to cost of living adjustments, yet each must live within the $4k robot cost. GP in this context is irrelevant. The client & consultant aren't competing with each other, nor is there necessarily a public disclosure of the details of an arrangement. It's a non-traditional and perhaps therefore frowned-upon" practice. Yet for hungry college kids who aren't looking to swindle a team, it could be a highly mutually beneficial experience. A curious question IMO, is whether or not it's GP for Team A to enact a non-compete agreement with a programmer so the programmer doesn't help Team B who's 10 minutes down the road. Edit - totally missed that this is a team being paid for another team's services. If there are governing entities involved (like school districts) add another layer of bureaucracy, yet otherwise the same issues apply. Otherwise the Team performing the services becomes the "company" in <R11>. Last edited by JesseK : 04-02-2015 at 13:13. |
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#21
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My first instinct is that this seems counter to the spirit of the competition. In retrospect go though I don't see how this is materially different from a team outsourcing the manufacturing of physical rebook parts to a company. It is quite possible that there are teams that are interested primarily in the building and not programming of a robot. for those teams they can still learn quite a bit from just the actual manufacturing of the machine minus the programming and still be inspired, perhaps even more so if programming has been your Achilles' heel in the past.
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#22
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Re: Programming for money
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In my mind, it's one thing to design a cad drawing and then have it laser cut or fabricated-- it was your design. It's another to farm out the actual design work. How would this conversation go over at St. Louis? FRC kid 1: Wow! That's an exciting autonomous you have there-- you carry all 3 containers and a stack of totes to the center *every* time! FRC kid 2: Yeah-- we paid a firm to write that for us-- it was well worth it! We were clueless how to even start but they said if we added encoders here, and there and switches here and there that they could make it work so that's what we did! |
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#23
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Re: Programming for money
When most teams send a part or system out for custom manufacture, it's mostly because they do not have the necessary equipment (lathe, CNC, laser cutter, mill, welder). To get good results, they have to figure out just what the piece should be so that it can do the job. The bottom line is that the team solved the problem, and the "contractor" implemented it. This is considered normal in FRC, though some teams can obviously afford a lot more of it than others.
Programming the robot is something that every team should have the equipment to do. There's enough stuff in the rookie KOP, and updates in each year's veterans' KOP. There is every expectation that even a minimally funded team could learn to program a robot. As such, this is something we really shouldn't see. If a team turned over a physical robot to a programming "contractor" with a "make it score points" direction, that would definitely not be within the intent of FRC. However, if the the "client" team defines what the program must do (e.g. when limit switch A is engaged, motor B is only allowed to be stopped or in reverse), then I can certainly see the argument that the team has "solved" the problem and the "contractor" has implemented it. |
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#24
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Re: Programming for money
If this person really needed money he would post more detail explaining how he can help teams. They would also post about how much experience they have coding robots.
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