Go to Post everyone loves photoshops of Dave... - lukevanoort [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > Robot Showcase
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-02-2015, 20:30
MarcoVi MarcoVi is offline
Registered User
FRC #2283 (Panteras)
Team Role: Scout
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: México
Posts: 5
MarcoVi is an unknown quantity at this point
Why the privacy in this years game?

Hi, I'm the lead scout for my team, and there's a thing that both makes me curious and annoyed.

This years game isn't so about competition and blocking the other alliance... So why haven't we seen more robots? The few we have seen are pretty much the same basic design, obviously with some specializations and variations that I really congratulate those teams for doing, but I really expected seeing more robots by now.

Thoughts?
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-02-2015, 20:35
lcoreyl's Avatar
lcoreyl lcoreyl is offline
WittyTitleGen can't link to library
AKA: Milner
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 201
lcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud oflcoreyl has much to be proud of
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcoVi View Post
Hi, I'm the lead scout for my team, and there's a thing that both makes me curious and annoyed.

This years game isn't so about competition and blocking the other alliance... So why haven't we seen more robots? The few we have seen are pretty much the same basic design, obviously with some specializations and variations that I really congratulate those teams for doing, but I really expected seeing more robots by now.

Thoughts?
It's still a competition to score the most points. If your team has different methods/mechanisms that you think will make you the top scorer, then you don't want people to copy that design and make the competition into purely execution of game strategy.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-02-2015, 20:36
wt200999's Avatar
wt200999 wt200999 is offline
Texas Instruments
AKA: Will Toth
FRC #3005 (Robochargers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 325
wt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud ofwt200999 has much to be proud of
Send a message via MSN to wt200999
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

FRC top 25 premiere night is probably holding quite a few back.

Quote:
We simply ask that you try, when you can, to limit the exposure of your robot prior to release night.
Was a good show last year and I expect it to be even better this year.
__________________
Programming in LabVIEW? Try VI Snippets!

FIRST LEGO League 2004 - 2005
FRC Team 870 Student 2006 - 2009
FRC Team 3005 Mentor 2013 -
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-02-2015, 21:06
orangemoore orangemoore is offline
Registered User
AKA: Roger Moore
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,310
orangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond reputeorangemoore has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

You will probably see a lot more robots after the 17th.
__________________
Stronghold


Student 2013-2016
3135 -- Robotic Colonels
3507 -- Robotheosis (FTC)
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-02-2015, 21:27
Thromgord's Avatar
Thromgord Thromgord is offline
The Warlord
FRC #3807 (The BlazerBots)
Team Role: Marketing
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 46
Thromgord has a spectacular aura aboutThromgord has a spectacular aura about
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

We tried to keep our build as transparent as possible this year. We even posted a video which you could literally use as a template for your entire robot, if you paused in the right places.

At the risk of over-posting this, here it is.

Given, our robot follows a very conventional design, and it's pretty low-budget. If our team had ambitions that were a bit more unique, though, we would be happy to show them off too.

It's not really in any team's best interest to keep a design away from others. If they do so, they may inspire a slew of copiers (but probably not); or they may gain valuable insight from teams with more experience, so that they can find out what works and what doesn't as soon as possible. Maybe the top 25 teams should try to keep their designs secret. But there are over 1,800 other teams active right now, and every single one of them could likely benefit from another team's advice.

Just my $0.02.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 00:11
Jacob Bendicksen's Avatar
Jacob Bendicksen Jacob Bendicksen is offline
Figuring out what's next
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 771
Jacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond reputeJacob Bendicksen has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Many people say this every year, and are proven wrong, but here goes: I think a lot of robots this year, with the exception of the very best, will be variations on the same basic design. Most robots will probably be some sort of forklift, and it'll be the little things that differentiate the 'meh' teams from the great teams. As a result, a lot of teams probably want to keep their 'special sauce' a secret until after Bag Day.

There's a good chance that I'll be proven wrong in a week and a half, but that's my theory at the moment.
__________________
jacobbendicksen.com | @jacobbendicksen

Yale University Class of 2020

Team 1540 | 2012-2016
7 Chairman's Awards, 6 other awards, 2015 Dean's List Finalist, 1 event win, 2 finalist finishes. Thanks for an amazing ride.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 00:33
BBray_T1296's Avatar
BBray_T1296 BBray_T1296 is offline
I am Dave! Yognaut
AKA: Brian Bray
FRC #1296 (Full Metal Jackets)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 947
BBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond reputeBBray_T1296 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Here is why: if robot A can outscore robot B. Robot A will (barring malfunction) ALWAYS win. There is nothing robot B can do (out strategize) to win.

As such, if team B knows what team A's robot does, they take that design, improve it, and become robot A in the first scenario.
__________________
If molecular reactions are deterministic, are all universes identical?

RIP David Shafer: you will be missed


  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 00:48
Chief Hedgehog's Avatar
Chief Hedgehog Chief Hedgehog is offline
Mentor
FRC #4607 (C.I.S.)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: May 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Becker, Minnesota
Posts: 555
Chief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond reputeChief Hedgehog has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wt200999 View Post
FRC top 25 premiere night is probably holding quite a few back.



Was a good show last year and I expect it to be even better this year.
I agree with this. I know our team has 'tried' (cough cough *coach needs to stop posting on FB*) to keep our designs close to the vest so that we can make the cut for FRCTOP25.
__________________

"An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it" ~JFK
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 00:53
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,825
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Bendicksen View Post
Most robots will probably be some sort of forklift, and it'll be the little things that differentiate the 'meh' teams from the great teams. As a result, a lot of teams probably want to keep their 'special sauce' a secret until after Bag Day.

There's a good chance that I'll be proven wrong in a week and a half, but that's my theory at the moment.
I think there's a VERY good chance that you will be proven RIGHT. I see this every year.


It's not easy to build a robot. Often, multiple teams will come out with similar designs. What differentiates them is something small. Might be a wheel choice, or maybe more driver practice, or some minor mechanism that actually serves a critical function.

And if you can keep that "secret sauce" under wraps until unleashing it at your first event, you can surprise everybody and force them to try to copy it to keep up.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 01:04
cadandcookies's Avatar
cadandcookies cadandcookies is offline
Director of Programs, GOFIRST
AKA: Nick Aarestad
FTC #9205 (The Iron Maidens)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 1,563
cadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Aside from the "secret sauce" argument, I think that there's a much stronger force keeping designs under wrap: habit. Quite simply, teams are almost all used to keeping their designs under wrap. Almost all of the reasons for this haven't vanished with this game.
__________________

Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. - John Perry Barlow
tumblr | twitter
'Snow Problem CAD Files: 2015 2016
MN FTC Field Manager, FTA, CSA, Emcee
FLL Maybe NXT Year (09-10) -> FRC 2220 (11-14) -> FTC 9205(14-?)/FRC 2667 (15-16)
VEXU UMN (2015-??)
Volunteer since 2011
2013 RCA Winner (North Star Regional) (2220)
2016 Connect Award Winner (North Super Regional and World Championship) (9205)
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 01:14
Andrew Lawrence
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

On the field, you are not directly competing against 3 other teams. However with the way the ranking system is set up, each time you play a match you are indirectly playing against the high scores of every single robot at the competition. I would argue that this makes this year even more competitive than previous years, and anything that a team has that could set them apart from the rest is likely going to be held in high secrecy, because this year each point you make that the other teams don't make matters.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 01:18
asid61's Avatar
asid61 asid61 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Anand Rajamani
FRC #1072 (MVRT)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Cupertino, CA
Posts: 2,231
asid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond reputeasid61 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

I'm sure that the most unique robots will be using good can grabbers, and as a result I don't think it's necessary for many teams to release pics and videos this year. Forklifts will be 90% of robots anyway.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 01:24
bEdhEd's Avatar
bEdhEd bEdhEd is offline
Design and Drive Team Mentor
AKA: Frank E.G. Shiner
FRC #0701 (The RoboVikes)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Fairfield, CA USA
Posts: 502
bEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond reputebEdhEd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence View Post
you are indirectly playing against the high scores of every single robot at the competition. I would argue that this makes this year even more competitive than previous years, and anything that a team has that could set them apart from the rest is likely going to be held in high secrecy
Exactly the reason why I think this game is much more competitive. If a robot has a mechanism or strategy that can score a huge amount of points, that matters in each and every match. In matches where there's a clear winner, the pressure to make the best of the best is not as high, but in the qualifications for this game, you literally have to be the best of the best.
__________________

  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 01:39
themccannman's Avatar
themccannman themccannman is offline
registered lurker
AKA: Jake McCann
FRC #3501
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 432
themccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond reputethemccannman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence View Post
On the field, you are not directly competing against 3 other teams. However with the way the ranking system is set up, each time you play a match you are indirectly playing against the high scores of every single robot at the competition. I would argue that this makes this year even more competitive than previous years, and anything that a team has that could set them apart from the rest is likely going to be held in high secrecy, because this year each point you make that the other teams don't make matters.
This is what a lot of people are missing. reducing your opponent's score puts one more robot below you in average score, this effectively bumps you up by one spot in the rankings (in both quals and elims). You don't have to be 1 of the 4 best alliances to make it through quarterfinals, you only have to be better than 4 other alliances. Same goes for semifinals, if you reduce your opponent's score, you effectively only have to outscore one other alliance to make the finals; and in finals your opponent's score directly affects your ability to win.

This is the case in almost every competitive sport, you don't have to be the best at anything, you just have to be better than whoever you're playing. This has been a lot more straightforward in past years, but it's still very much the case this year, you're just playing 8, and 4 team free-for-alls instead of 2 team free-for-alls (aka a 1v1).
__________________
All posts here are purely my own opinion.
2011-2015: 1678
2016: 846
2017 - current: 3501
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-02-2015, 01:52
jwiederspan jwiederspan is offline
Registered User
FRC #3663
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Washington
Posts: 5
jwiederspan is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Why the privacy in this years game?

For us, the issue is much more simple - we're all working so hard on the robot that nobody has had time to make any video or announcement yet.

On the topic of how some teams end up doing better than others, I'd like to add my own view:
* Even a great robot won't do well if the driver doesn't know what to do or where to go - drive team practice and knowing how the game is likely to flow can double the quality of your robot; and
* Scouting is as important as anything else the team does - teams that know how to best support their alliance partners and what the strengths are of their partners are will do better each round than those that either plan to do the same thing every time or just fly around hoping they figure out what to do when the time comes.

Of course, I could be wrong.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:14.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi