Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

My understanding KOP material has to be on the BOM. The cost is $0.00 so it does not go against the $4000.00

That was always my understanding as well but apparently not for 2015.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

That was always my understanding as well but apparently not for 2015.

This is a change for this year, and personally I both like and dislike it. On the one hand, it makes the BOM shorter and easier... But on the other hand, including KOP items makes it more complete and more closely approximates the real world.

[Rosiebotboss]

One more thing on pneumatics I want to put up here, seeing how this is a very popular thread and a LOT of people are reading it, do NOT jump out your Nason Pressure Switch during set up on the field to pre-charge the robot.

Last year, I saw 1 team use a switch that bypassed the Nason Switch to pre charge on the field before a match (and then took the switch out of its socket and the mentor put it in his pocket) and another team use a Leatherman multi tool to jump the 2 wires to pre charge.

This allows teams to over charge (over 120 psi) the system at start up, all the way up to whatever the pressure relief valve was set.

[bachster]

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

Last year, I saw 1 team use a switch that bypassed the Nason Switch to pre charge on the field before a match (and then took the switch out of its socket and the mentor put it in his pocket) and another team use a Leatherman multi tool to jump the 2 wires to pre charge.

This allows teams to over charge (over 120 psi) the system at start up, all the way up to whatever the pressure relief valve was set.

I've also heard this as advertised as a "trick" to get that extra 5-7 psi between the point the switch cuts off (typically 115 or less) to 120. While lawyering of rules in the past may have allowed teams to convince themselves it was legal, I believe it is specifically not this year, based on a combination of:

R63 To satisfy multiple constraints associated with safety, consistency, Inspection, and constructive innovation, no pneumatic parts
other than those explicitly permitted in Section 4.10: Pneumatic System may be used on the ROBOT

(A jumper is not an explicitly permitted pneumatic part)

R65 All pneumatic COMPONENTS must be used in their original, unaltered condition.

(Jumpering the switch is not using it in its original condition)

R77 The pressure switch requirements are:
...
C. The two wires from the pressure switch must be connected directly the pressure switch input of the PCM controlling the compressor or, if controlled using the roboRIO and a Spike relay, to the roboRIO.
D. If connected to the roboRIO, the roboRIO must be programmed to sense the state of the switch and operate the relay module that powers the compressor to prevent over-pressuring the system.

(Jumpering across the switch is not directly connecting it to the PCM or roboRIO)

[bachster]

Originally Posted by rich2202

BOM Comment:

KOP items do not have to be listed.

It would be nice if certain KOP items had to be listed, like motors. The reason is: They are limited by part number, and quantity. By explicitly listing them, it is easier to confirm the part number.

Agreed. I wish FIRST put a little more emphasis on the BOM, not even from a cost perspective but just from a real world perspective and emphasizing the importance of being accurate and specific. I've started using the BOM as a build-season-long job for rookies on the build team, to get them to learn what all the components are and where they come from, ideally real-time as they are added to the robot. I conveniently didn't tell them about this, and I'm not sure they've read the BOM rules closely enough to realize it themselves. I'd like our BOM to reflect our whole robot.

It would also be nice from an inspection perspective to have all the KOP items listed, especially since the definition of KOP includes any year's checklist, FIRSTChoice, and PDV items. A team could claim pretty much anything falls under one of those categories and I'd be hard pressed to disprove it. I'd like to see teams have to call out what it is and where it's from, even if that is "2002 KOP" or "2013 FIRSTChoice" and the cost is $0.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by bachster

It would also be nice from an inspection perspective to have all the KOP items listed, especially since the definition of KOP includes any year's checklist, FIRSTChoice, and PDV items. A team could claim pretty much anything falls under one of those categories and I'd be hard pressed to disprove it. I'd like to see teams have to call out what it is and where it's from, even if that is "2002 KOP" or "2013 FIRSTChoice" and the cost is $0.

Remember that it's not your job to disprove it... It's the team's job to prove that their robot is legal. If you're inspecting Wildstang (sorry Al!) And they point to a gizmo and say " We didn't have to list that because it came in the 1995 Kit of Parts", my first question would be " and it still works?" Followed closely by " you mean in the past 20 years you guys have never cleaned house and chucked old stuff? How much storage do you have at your build space?", And finally ending with "could you pull out the KoP checklist from 1995 and show me the part listed there? Like all you kids, I wasn't exactly around FIRST back then..."

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

Last year, I saw 1 team use a switch that bypassed the Nason Switch to pre charge on the field before a match

If it happened this year, I would cite Rule R69" ... the compressor must still be controlled and powered by the ROBOT". Shorting the switch is no longer "controlled" by the ROBOT. I know that R69 talks about off-board compressor. However, the wording includes "still", which implies a condition that exists prior to removing the compressor from the robot.

[rich2202]

The Inspection Checklist includes Software Version numbers for not only the DS and roboRIO, but also for the Talons, Jaguars, PCM, and PDP.

I remember last year finding the DS and cRIO on the dashboard. Do you have instructions for checking the Talons, Jaguars, PCM, and PDP?

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by rich2202

The Inspection Checklist includes Software Version numbers for not only the DS and roboRIO, but also for the Talons, Jaguars, PCM, and PDP.

I remember last year finding the DS and cRIO on the dashboard. Do you have instructions for checking the Talons, Jaguars, PCM, and PDP?

These can be found on the diagnostic tab of the driver station. http://wpilib.screenstepslive.com/s/...ation-software

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

These can be found on the diagnostic tab of the driver station. http://wpilib.screenstepslive.com/s/...ation-software

Thanks.

If a team is using a Talon or Jag in PWM mode, do we still need to check the firmware version?

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

One more thing on pneumatics I want to put up here, seeing how this is a very popular thread and a LOT of people are reading it, do NOT jump out your Nason Pressure Switch during set up on the field to pre-charge the robot.

Last year, I saw 1 team use a switch that bypassed the Nason Switch to pre charge on the field before a match (and then took the switch out of its socket and the mentor put it in his pocket) and another team use a Leatherman multi tool to jump the 2 wires to pre charge.

This allows teams to over charge (over 120 psi) the system at start up, all the way up to whatever the pressure relief valve was set.

If you are going to argue this then I would say that the inspectors better stop doing it on our robot for inspection while our students are watching. It sets a bad example and gives kids the idea it is an okay method to reach that ever elusive 120 PSI we are allowed.

It wouldn't be too hard to rig a switch that looked official for an inspector to use that gives better control and a more professional appearance over stabbing a screwdriver in there to short the leads.

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

If you are going to argue this then I would say that the inspectors better stop doing it on our robot for inspection while our students are watching. It sets a bad example and gives kids the idea it is an okay method to reach that ever elusive 120 PSI we are allowed.

It wouldn't be too hard to rig a switch that looked official for an inspector to use that gives better control and a more professional appearance over stabbing a screwdriver in there to short the leads.

The intent of the shorting of the pressure switch by inspectors is to verify the pressure relief valve is set at 120 psi at the event. While I don't endorse teams using a screwdriver to jump the pressure switch, the inspectors are watching the pressure to confirm the relief valve opens at 120 PSI. If the team fails this test, the inspector instructs the team to properly calibrate their relief valve.

I find it important for students and teams to understand that a failed or shorted pressure switch can happen. The inspector testing the circuit by shorting the switch is a valid and important part of the inspection. It is important for teams to understand the failsafes in place in a pneumatic system to reduce the risk of a catastrophic failure.

If it means anything, I never used a screwdriver to short the switch. I always carried a set of alligator clip jumper wires for this since I felt it looked more professional. I also explained to the team why I was testing their pneumatic system and what the ramifications of a failed switch and improperly set pressure relief valve were. The inspector isn't someone charged with failing a team due to mysterious reasoning outside of the watchful eye of the team. The inspector is also responsible for helping teams learn and understand to keep everyone safe.

[Rosiebotboss]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

If you are going to argue this then I would say that the inspectors better stop doing it on our robot for inspection while our students are watching. It sets a bad example and gives kids the idea it is an okay method to reach that ever elusive 120 PSI we are allowed.

It wouldn't be too hard to rig a switch that looked official for an inspector to use that gives better control and a more professional appearance over stabbing a screwdriver in there to short the leads.

EVERY time I do this while inspecting a team, I tell the kids why I am doing it. I am doing it to check the relief valve is relieving when it is supposed to, at about 125psi. That is the ONLY time I want to see a team jump that switch. And I add that if I see them doing it on the field, I will dump their air prior to match startup, after consulting with the Head Ref.

[Thad House]

Something Ive always wondered, and I've always gotten different answers to. Is the 125 for the pressure relief valve the pressure it releases to, or the pressure it starts releasing. I've always seen that if its set to never let the pressure go above 125, it usually reliefs down to about 110 psi. If we set it so it wont let the pressure go above 135, if reliefs down to 125. Which method is correct? Some inspectors ive seen want it one way, and some want it another.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Thad House

Something Ive always wondered, and I've always gotten different answers to. Is the 125 for the pressure relief valve the pressure it releases to, or the pressure it starts releasing. I've always seen that if its set to never let the pressure go above 125, it usually reliefs down to about 110 psi. If we set it so it wont let the pressure go above 135, if reliefs down to 125. Which method is correct? Some inspectors ive seen want it one way, and some want it another.

Originally Posted by R76

The relief valve must be attached directly to the compressor or attached by legal hard fittings (e.g. brass, nylon, etc.) connected to the compressor output port. If using an off-board compressor, an additional relief valve must be included on the ROBOT.

Originally Posted by R76 Blue Box

If necessary, Teams are required to adjust the relief valve to release air at 125 psi. The valve may or may not have been calibrated prior to being supplied to Teams.

You should not have to worry because it will only reach 125 when being tested.