60 second set-up / pack-up time?

[Domtech]

Very simply put, ball and butterfly valves are not on the list of allowed pneumatic components, therefore they are not allowed.
The one exception is the one vent plug valve.

[LeelandS]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

In the rules, it says that drive teams must set up their robots from transport configuration before each match and pack it back into transport configuration quickly. "60 seconds" is given as a "guideline."

With all the very creative/innovative/complicated robots we are seeing in reveal videos, I am starting to wonder how many of them are going to be able to do that? Do we have any idea how strictly referees are going call the 60-second guideline? I know we made some design decisions with that guideline in mind, but I wonder if some others did not? Or at least hope to abide by the time limit rather loosely?

While I doubt we will be seeing referees with a stop watch counting down 60 seconds, I would expect most field team members would want to act like they are. Maybe some will be.

It has always been in the rules that delaying the competition in one way or another with result in penalties. It's in the rules that delaying a match AT ITS CONCLUSION (i.e. delaying field reset) may result in a yellow card. I would be surprised if delaying the start of a match didn't have similar results.

The referees have a schedule to maintain. Quick match cycles make for a much smoother event. No one, be it teams, volunteers or spectators, want to sit there and watch you assemble your robot. If you have a 62 second set-up time I would be expecting referees to be breathing down your neck, but remember, you are keeping people waiting.

Personally, we did everything we could to fit in the transport config. Our current bagged robot fits in the transport configuration with no assembly required. It's faster, and we we don't need to worry about forgetting to do anything aside from turn the robot on (which, historically, I have a bad track record with anyway). When we get to FLR, I dunno. Maybe that'll change. But sizing and set-up requirements I believe should have been part of every team's design choice.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

In the rules, it says that drive teams must set up their robots from transport configuration before each match and pack it back into transport configuration quickly. "60 seconds" is given as a "guideline."

With all the very creative/innovative/complicated robots we are seeing in reveal videos, I am starting to wonder how many of them are going to be able to do that? Do we have any idea how strictly referees are going call the 60-second guideline? I know we made some design decisions with that guideline in mind, but I wonder if some others did not? Or at least hope to abide by the time limit rather loosely?

FIRST wants to stick to it's turn around time (rumor is it'll still be six minutes) but there are always teams who will push the envelope. I'm sure a team that is taking a minute or two at first is fine but if a team is consistently taking too long the ref will most likely give them a hard time. If teams want a certain amount of matches it would be in their best interest to keep delays to a minimum. FIRST will cancel matches to keep up with their deadline of finishing the event on time.

[The_ShamWOW88]

we're completely within the parameters, no set up needed....but listening to everyone, sounds like we did something wrong

[alicen]

We actually touched on this subject briefly in a ref call with our event's head ref. I know my head ref likes to give the benefit of the doubt and has said there will not be stop watches. 60 seconds is a guideline. I think what we'll be looking at more than anything is not being on the field building your robot for 60 seconds longer than everyone else.

ie: teams 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 have assembled their robot and gone to their driver's station, but team 6 takes 2 minutes longer when they started at the same time.

It's going to be a tough call, nobody wants to give a YC for that. I don't think there's been a YC given at our regional for delay of game that I can remember.

Oh, and I think we are still sticking to 6 or 7 minute turn arounds, so good luck to everyone!

[Tem1514 Mentor]

Originally Posted by Sohaib

We have another option should the current setup be deemed illegal.

I'm with Gregor on this one and would suggest that you guys install your "other option". Of Course a Q&A would really help here just to be sure.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Sohaib

The air to the pistons on the intake is stopped by a butterfly valve. Once the tubing is connected to its connectors, the butterfly valve is opened.

The system is also charged with this valve closed.

We're contemplating just having long enough tubing so that we can put it into the transport configuration without the need of the butterfly valve which likes to leak.

I would say this is illegal as the rules are written, per the allowed parts list and the rules about the dump valve.

Instead, use a standard shop compressor quick connect fitting. It's a standard fitting, so it's a legal part, and when disconnected does not leak any air.

[Jon Stratis]

The big issue isn't strictly ruling on the 60 second time... it's on maintaining the pace and turn around time of the matches. Imagine, if you would, everyone taking an extra 15 seconds. With a 60 team event and every team getting 10 qual matches, that's 100 matches, or an extra 1500 seconds - almost half an hour added to the day. The head ref, FTA, field reset, and others around the field are going to be doing everything they can to avoid having that happen.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Gregor

It sounds like you're violating R78A

We originally felt similarly, until re-reading the rules. We determined that the second valve would fall under R66-F, as a flow control valve.

R66
The only pneumatic system items permitted on 2015 FRC ROBOTS include the items listed below.
[...]
F. Pressure transducers, pressure gauges, flow control valves, manifolds, and connecting fittings,

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

We originally felt similarly, until re-reading the rules. We determined that the second valve would fall under R66-F, as a flow control valve.

But if that valve was left closed, even by accident, it would prevent the main dump valve from releasing all stored pressure.

Why don't you just install your cylinders downstream from a solenoid that is normally closed?

[Bryan Herbst]

The head ref may not be watching the clock, but your FTA will call you out on it (and talk to the head ref) if it is causing a problem.

They will also be more strict as the regional progresses- you will probably have a bit of leeway on Thursday and going into Friday because the FTA(A) will be busy getting teams connected and making sure the field is in working order. Those problems start to go away on Friday though.

If you are still putting your robot together but all the robots are connected to the field and we are ready to go, then I will probably be talking to you about your setup time.

[Caleb Sykes]

It bothers me when the field can't stay on schedule. It would bother me even more if it was team set up that was delaying the schedule. If a team consistently takes longer than 60 seconds to set up, I guarantee they will be moved down on our pick list. I have seen penalties in elims for sillier things than this. It's not worth it to us to risk a yellow card every match because our partner can't set up quickly.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

We originally felt similarly, until re-reading the rules. We determined that the second valve would fall under R66-F, as a flow control valve.

Realizing it the LRI at the competition that will be making the ultimate call...
When using a "flow control valve" as a "blocking valve" it ceases being a "flow control valve" and is no longer legal. While not even predicting if the GDC would answer a question about this, the logic is similar to what they used in the past.

Using a quick connect fitting is a good idea, but they are essential check valves which are not legal. Of course if it is considered to be an integral part of an legally allowed connecting fitting...

[MrForbes]

how about leaving the cylinder connected to the tubes, and have a quick mounting system for it? with pins and clips, or something

[Batterink]

We had a similar pneumatic lockout problem. We solved it with a single acting solenoid. When the robot is disabled it "defaults" to a closed loop and vents the lines that run to the solenoids that run the cylinders, allowing us to disconnect the lines. When the robot is enabled, we enable the solenoid and it sends air to the system that has been attached.