Mentor/Student Involvement Philosophies

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by ZackAlfakir

Sorry I haven't been following through with this thread due to build season, but as a Student, I actually teach all of the lower classmen how to program. As someone with 3 years of experience, I actually don't touch the robot code for the most part, and instead I help all of the other kids understand how to do their part.

From my experience, all you really need is dedication and determination. My Rule #1 for programming team is "All Day Errey Day" and they really believe that, and that is what makes our team sucessful.

Excellent. pretend you're a few years older now and are either in the process of getting your degree or have it. Congrats, you just described what most all mentors do. Here's your free corndog.
(though some mentors they may actively contribute to code too).

(as a side note, I hated in high school when my team leadership tried forcing me to teach others how to work with the control system. While I liked explaining it and helping others while they were interested, they wanted me to step back and let the underclassmen do most of the work. If I'm a student on a team, I want to be inspired, and I get my inspiration by doing the actual programming myself...)

[Seth Mallory]

Each team is different since the depending on the goals that the team sets for the students and the resources the team has. The following is a small listing of what is many items.

Goals for example could be to inspire, win, teach or any combination of what they want. Also in teaching what do you want to teach.

Resources include mentors, money, facilities, training time, students.

Mentors. This means how many, skill level, mindset (inspire, win, teach).
Money. How much and does it have strings.
Facilities. What tools, space, storage, or access to sponsor's facilities.
Training time. Does the team form before build and have no time to train, Is it an after school team and gets some training in the fall. Do they have a class and train year around.
Students. Is the team struggling to get members or is it more popular then the football team. Do you have students that can train the rookies in correct use of the tools and teach them how to design and build.

Now you take all of the above and much more and you make a team and that is is why there are so many different types of teams. This is why I try to not judge other teams on their program. A good robot does not mean a good program and a bad robot does not mean a bad program. If the team meets the goals set out for the students then it is a good program.

[Mr. Van]

Originally Posted by Seth Mallory

Each team is different since the depending on the goals that the team sets for the students and the resources the team has.

...

A good robot does not mean a good program and a bad robot does not mean a bad program. If the team meets the goals set out for the students then it is a good program.

This is probably the most important thing said here.

The Game (winning and losing) is primarily a game of mentors. The experience of doing the whole thing is something completely different - something we often forget to focus on here on CD with our emphasis on OPR, blue banners, trips to Einstein, etc.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

[philso]

Originally Posted by Mr. Van

This is probably the most important thing said here.

The Game (winning and losing) is primarily a game of mentors. The experience of doing the whole thing is something completely different - something we often forget to focus on here on CD with our emphasis on OPR, blue banners, trips to Einstein, etc.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

^
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This and what you do to have a positive impact in your community. That is why I think FIRST made the Chairman's Award more coveted than winning on Einstein.

[Sam_Mills]

Originally Posted by ZackAlfakir

... as a Student, I actually teach all of the lower classmen how to program. As someone with 3 years of experience, I actually don't touch the robot code for the most part, and instead I help all of the other kids understand how to do their part ...

I can appreciate your position; as a student on 11, I taught underclassmen to use Solidworks, as well as basic machining. Programming was the same, upperclassmen teaching underclassmen. There are limitations though. When I started gearbox design for example, VEXpro didn't exist, WCP was in its very early stages. Everything I learned I either taught myself using wikipedia articles, or asked mentors on teams with more experience.

Older students teaching younger students is an elegant, mutually beneficial dynamic that should be encouraged whenever possible but as I said above, there are limitations. I taught Solidworks, but I wasn't CSWA certified and there were professional conventions I knew nothing about from teaching myself.

I don't doubt that when you get to college (assuming you are doing Comp. Sci.), you will be ahead of the majority of your peers. You can't claim though to have the depth of knowledge to teach other students to write camera code for a 5 ball 2012 auton that is 85% accurate. If you could write code that could get you 70% of the way there, and have a mentor assist and debug the remaining 30% to get it working, would you honestly say "No, I don't want that. A mentor helping me would devalue the learning experience more than the gained knowledge and inspiration from winning could offset"?

I don't mean to come across as snarky, just consider the effects on the student base in each hypothetical situation before deciding one is better.

[Tammyo]

Our team is a student led club in which the veteran members pass down their knowledge to the newcomers. The experienced members teach the rookies what they have learned and may seek the mentors assistance on topics beyond their expertise. The goal of our team is for the students to be actively involved while mentors give their guidance.

[Avrum Goldman]

Joe, I agree completely with your philosophy. IMHO, FIRST robotics is such an immersive experience that almost any aspect and any element can be a "teachable moment" that will inspire the students to learn more.

I was very interested in your Sheet Metal experience. Does your team have any material you can share, such as design guidelines, library of parts you have made, or training material? Our team has access to our own "manual" sheet metal equipment, but I would like to know your views on what you can do with CNC vs manual shop.

Avrum Goldman
Lead Mentor
Team 3979 Solaris

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by Avrum Goldman

Joe, I agree completely with your philosophy. IMHO, FIRST robotics is such an immersive experience that almost any aspect and any element can be a "teachable moment" that will inspire the students to learn more.

I was very interested in your Sheet Metal experience. Does your team have any material you can share, such as design guidelines, library of parts you have made, or training material? Our team has access to our own "manual" sheet metal equipment, but I would like to know your views on what you can do with CNC vs manual shop.

Avrum Goldman
Lead Mentor
Team 3979 Solaris

Sent you a PM, if there's enough general interest I could get my team to put together a whitepaper on good sheet metal practice. A thread necro with a title like this is a dangerous thing...

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by magnets

FRC: FIRST Robotics Competition.

It's a competition. There is no rule that says we cannot have a team of 300 of the brightest engineers build our robot for us. Team 254 inspires students by winning and being better than 99% of everybody else. That's their call to make, and not ours to discuss or criticize.

Exactly. Every team has a different philosophy on how mentors should be involved; trying to get every team in FRC to utilize their mentors in roughly the same way (or to eliminate some kinds of mentor involvement) is futile. What matters is if the students are being inspired, and winning is pretty inspiring.
Admittedly, I am a strong believer that most design and strategic decisions should be made by the students. However, why underutilize brilliant mentors when they can contribute so much? Why not take advantage of the unique skills offered by mentors experienced in their field? I learned to use PCB design software this year after a mentor designed a circuit for a custom Talon SRX expansion board. Was it mentor-deisgned? Yes. Did a student learn something new? Yes. Mentor involvement in design, and student inspiration aren't mutually exclusive.