The math of the cans...

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by lynca

Agreed, the Recycle Rush skills challenge is a huge swing away from Aerial Assist teamwork centric game.

I disagree on both counts. While Aerial Assist was presented as a teamwork-centric game, at the regional seeding and even much of our regional elimination level, there were few assist points scored compared to the number of points prevented by defense, because it was so much easier to get in the way than to gain possession of the ball.

On the other hand, in Recycle Rush moderate-power teams that can work as a team can score more points together than they can separately, especially if they have complementary capabilities; there's no requirement that each stack be built by exactly one robot. I think that one noodling canner and two tote stackers that can execute their tasks well can score much more together than three robots that can do both fairly. I believe this will be a game of specialization and teamwork at both low and high levels.

Further, smart alliance selection for elims/playoffs will be based more on teamwork capability than seeding rank or OPR.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Common, who doesn't like seeing an entire season decided in less than a quarter of a second?

I loved 2011 too!!!!!!

At least this year the quarter of a second is at the beginning of the match, not the end. Saves you about two minutes that you can spend going to the concessions stand or something.

[faust1706]

Originally Posted by bduddy

At least this year the quarter of a second is at the beginning of the match, not the end. Saves you about two minutes that you can spend going to the concessions stand or something.

That will be so disheartening: making it to that level of play, and it coming down to the less than the first second of the match to know if you won or not. I don't know of any other sport/activity that is similar to this.

And to be on the other side, if we get those 4 bins from the middle, it comes down to how well have you practiced as a driver. There is literally nothing the other team can do to prevent you from scoring, they can only attempt to outscore you, which won't happen at the top level of play.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

I disagree on both counts. While Aerial Assist was presented as a teamwork-centric game, at the regional seeding and even much of our regional elimination level, there were few assist points scored compared to the number of points prevented by defense, because it was so much easier to get in the way than to gain possession of the ball.

On the other hand, in Recycle Rush moderate-power teams that can work as a team can score more points together than they can separately, especially if they have complementary capabilities; there's no requirement that each stack be built by exactly one robot. I think that one noodling canner and two tote stackers that can execute their tasks well can score much more together than three robots that can do both fairly. I believe this will be a game of specialization and teamwork at both low and high levels.

Further, smart alliance selection for elims/playoffs will be based more on teamwork capability than seeding rank or OPR.

Elite teams pick strategies that allow them to win regardless of who is on their alliance. Therefore elite teams this year will be able to do just about everything by themselves. A well formed alliance can counter that but elite teams will seed higher, for theost part, and will use their scouting to pick an alliance that will be very difficult to beat.

The rich will get richer in this game.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

I disagree on both counts. While Aerial Assist was presented as a teamwork-centric game, at the regional seeding and even much of our regional elimination level, there were few assist points scored compared to the number of points prevented by defense, because it was so much easier to get in the way than to gain possession of the ball.

You were not playing competitive Aerial Assist at a high level of play then. The entire fame was teamwork and coordinated defence without detracting from your own score.

This game has almost no match strategy.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Elite teams pick strategies that allow them to win regardless of who is on their alliance. Therefore elite teams this year will be able to do just about everything by themselves. A well formed alliance can counter that but elite teams will seed higher, for theost part, and will use their scouting to pick an alliance that will be very difficult to beat.

The rich will get richer in this game.

I agree and will add that this game sort of levels the "skill" you need to compete and a high level. Its a very "blue collar" type game. So teams that take a mentality of building a workman like robot will do well especially if versatile enough to do any task.

This does not require an advanced mechanism. I think you will be surprised that some "dark horse" teams make it to Einstein along with the Powerhouses. Because they have shown to be valuable in ever changing game conditions this year...sort of like a Wes Welker or Danny Woodhead like robot.

This year is so unique that I think some Powerhouse teams who have not adapted to this mentality and use previous winning precision formulas will fail. There are many teams that if things aren't PERFECT they will be useless.

We plan to compete and I for one LOVE this bringing everyone to a certain level this year. So many variables its going to be a constantly changing leader board.

As for match strategy it will change with the other two you have...I find it fascinating.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by faust1706

That will be so disheartening: making it to that level of play, and it coming down to the less than the first second of the match to know if you won or not. I don't know of any other sport/activity that is similar to this.

You've never heard of drag racing?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Boltman

This does not require an advanced mechanism. I think you will be surprised that some "dark horse" teams make it to Einstein along with the Powerhouses. Because they have shown to be valuable in ever changing game conditions this year...sort of like a Wes Welker or Danny Woodhead like robot.
.

I'll build a Julian Edelman robot. That robot doesn't drop Super bowl winning touchdown passes.

[Rachel Lim]

Originally Posted by Gregor

This game has almost no match strategy.

I think every game has had some level of strategy. At lower levels of play and earlier competitions, where teams are struggling to figure out how control and move game pieces, there won't be much of it. But the same was true last year--many matches (even when we competed during week 4) had very little strategy. We spent at least one match not moving, and then had to figure out how to control the yoga balls. It wasn't until much later that we figured out which roles we could play well.

This year, for very strong alliances, strategy will be key to them winning. They can't just tell their third bot to just inbound a ball and then play defense. Every robot will either contribute or be essentially useless. Robots may play very different, separate roles, but I'd still consider it a strategic game.

Like always, the range of matches will be huge, from little to no strategy in week 1 or less competitive to incredible alliances on Einstein. In the first set, matches will be difficult to watch and strategy won't play as huge a role, since just being able to control game pieces is usually enough. In the second, with many capable robots, how they divide up tasks will be crucial.

But only time can show what this game will bring.

[faust1706]

Originally Posted by MrForbes

You've never heard of drag racing?

Derp. You're right. An interesting aspect with the game being decided within the first second is that it involves zero human interaction when the game starts.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I agree and will add that this game sort of levels the "skill" you need to compete and a high level. Its a very "blue collar" type game. So teams that take a mentality of building a workman like robot will do well especially if versatile enough to do any task.

This does not require an advanced mechanism. I think you will be surprised that some "dark horse" teams make it to Einstein along with the Powerhouses. Because they have shown to be valuable in ever changing game conditions this year...sort of like a Wes Welker or Danny Woodhead like robot.

This year is so unique that I think some Powerhouse teams who have not adapted to this mentality and use previous winning precision formulas will fail. There are many teams that if things aren't PERFECT they will be useless.

We plan to compete and I for one LOVE this bringing everyone to a certain level this year. So many variables its going to be a constantly changing leader board.

As for match strategy it will change with the other two you have...I find it fascinating.

I'm not sure what you mean, but it is pretty clear that this is the year the rich get richer and the middle of the road teams have no way to differentiate themselves.

Look at 148 as an example. They will potentially empty the human loading stations entirely. That would be 3 stacks, with noodles and cans, and 2 stacks with no noodles/cans and 34 points in auton. Total of 184 points by themselves (plus coop points, if they do it themselves).

An average robot probably can't even create a 6 stack or takes the entire match to do so. Let's be charitable and say you could make a 6 stack and a 3 stack. That's only 18 points without someone getting cans off the step to cap with (which assumes someone other than 148 can cap cans). 18 points isn't trivial, but its 10% that of 148.

To be fair, even elite robots will fail to make 5 6 stacks on their own, so the bar isn't quite that high. But the overall contribution of the average team will still be minimal, compared to last year where you absolutely needed them to contribute in order to get high scores.

The only way a middle of the road team could have differentiated themselves was with a multi recycling can autonomous grabber...but the problem is the elite teams will all do it faster/better than those middle of the road teams do, leading to the middle of the road 2 (or 4) RC grabber robot being useless once lined up against the elite team with their 2 or 4 RC grabber robot.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Cory

elite teams will all do it faster/better than those middle of the road teams do, leading to the middle of the road 2 (or 4) RC grabber robot being useless once lined up against the elite team with their 2 or 4 RC grabber robot.

In 2011, at least 1st and 4th was worth 5 more points than 2nd and 3rd. Second doesn't matter at all this year.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Cory

I'm not sure what you mean, but it is pretty clear that this is the year the rich get richer and the middle of the road teams have no way to differentiate themselves.

Look at 148 as an example. They will potentially empty the human loading stations entirely. That would be 3 stacks, with noodles and cans and 34 points in auton. Total of 160 points by themselves (plus coop points, if they do it themselves).

An average robot probably can't even create a 6 stack or takes the entire match to do so. Let's be charitable and say you could make a 6 stack and a 3 stack. That's only 18 points without someone getting cans off the step to cap with (which assumes someone other than 148 can cap cans). 18 points isn't trivial, but its basically 1/10 that of 148.

To be fair, even elite robots will fail to make 5 6 stacks on their own, so the bar isn't quite that high. But the overall contribution of the average team will still be minimal, compared to last year where you absolutely needed them to contribute in order to get high scores.

The only way a middle of the road team could have differentiated themselves was with a multi recycling can autonomous grabber...but the problem is the elite teams will all do it faster/better than those middle of the road teams do, leading to the middle of the road 2 (or 4) RC grabber robot being useless once lined up against the elite team with their 2 or 4 RC grabber robot.

Have you seen how long it takes 148 to stack 6 + RC+ noodle? (I saw a lot of clips of it driving around with 6 loaded which many bots can do) Remember theroretical scores are just that until duplicated in action under game conditions in 135 seconds. Its easy to be enamored/wowed with glossy reveal videos...lets see it in action first. It takes TIME to build any stack (even at HP station) and many of these robots need perfection to build those stacks in the first place.

Potentially empty the HP station is just that... potential not necessarily reality..our bot could potentially score all landfill totes doesn't prove anything. I think 148 will be solid but also rely to a certain extent on decent alliance players or they will fail it they expect to "do it all" and waltz into the Championship Finals.

I see a shakeup this year at the Top...not a predictable as in past do to variability in game conditions. Many robots are very similar in design and that makes it difficult for many to separate including powerhouse teams.

[x86_4819]

Originally Posted by faust1706

that's how breakaway was on einstein. If you didn't stop....469(?) in autonomous you lost the match.

For those of us that weren't involved in FRC back then, what did they do that was so great?

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by x86_4819

For those of us that weren't involved in FRC back then, what did they do that was so great?

Navigated to the platform and mechanically locked themselves in position to roll all the balls returned into play back into the goal.