Go to Post Robotics = my anti drug. - Queen_of_Mascot [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 18 votes, 4.78 average. Display Modes
  #91   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2015, 23:12
cadandcookies's Avatar
cadandcookies cadandcookies is offline
Director of Programs, GOFIRST
AKA: Nick Aarestad
FTC #9205 (The Iron Maidens)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 1,565
cadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrifBot View Post
Should there be an investigation? Yes. Should the refs be investigated? Yes. Were the things that happened both un-GP to 987 and rather unfair in general? Yes. But remember, the refs are volunteers.
To be honest I think the response has been pretty mild. No calls for a witchhunt or anything. I'm sure the teams affected by this would still like there to be some sort of investigation or at the very least acknowledgement that there has in fact been a problem.
__________________

Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. - John Perry Barlow
tumblr | twitter
'Snow Problem CAD Files: 2015 2016
MN FTC Field Manager, FTA, CSA, Emcee
FLL Maybe NXT Year (09-10) -> FRC 2220 (11-14) -> FTC 9205(14-?)/FRC 2667 (15-16)
VEXU UMN (2015-??)
Volunteer since 2011
2013 RCA Winner (North Star Regional) (2220)
2016 Connect Award Winner (North Super Regional and World Championship) (9205)
Reply With Quote
  #92   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2015, 23:16
g_sawchuk's Avatar
g_sawchuk g_sawchuk is offline
Hmm.
AKA: Griffin Sawchuk
FRC #4476
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 340
g_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really nice
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadandcookies View Post
To be honest I think the response has been pretty mild. No calls for a witchhunt or anything. I'm sure the teams affected by this would still like there to be some sort of investigation or at the very least acknowledgement that there has in fact been a problem.
I agree with this. To be fair, it will take some time for FIRST to find out/sort this out. I would think 3802 deserves a spot at champs. 148 and 987 are already going from what I've heard.
__________________
FRC 2013-2015 (K-Botics #2809)
VEX 2015 - 2016 (W.A.F.F.L.E.S. #4476)
FLL 2015 - ??? (MechMasters #16931)
FRC 2016 - ??? (W.A.F.F.L.E.S. #4476)
2016 Dean's List Finalist

My thoughts and ideas do not necessarily reflect those of my team.
Reply With Quote
  #93   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-02-2015, 23:40
Dunngeon Dunngeon is offline
Pumped
AKA: Ryan
FRC #0973 (Greybots)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
Posts: 299
Dunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond reputeDunngeon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

It's extremely disappointing to see this no notification starting config disablement resurfacing year after year. It was perhaps my biggest problem with our first event last year, where we were disabled for having two pieces that contact the ball slightly outside our frame perimeter in the middle of quals.

This had the rather unfortunate result of losing us the match. Since then, I make it a point to always ASK refs if our robot is in valid starting configuration if there's anything that is quite close to the limit. That way we at least have some recourse if a disablement occurs for starting config.

Don't even get me started on the "question box"...
__________________
(2015-?): 973
(2012-2015): 955
Reply With Quote
  #94   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 00:14
sailer99 sailer99 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Sam
FRC #4476 (W.A.F.F.L.E.S.)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 28
sailer99 has much to be proud ofsailer99 has much to be proud ofsailer99 has much to be proud ofsailer99 has much to be proud ofsailer99 has much to be proud ofsailer99 has much to be proud ofsailer99 has much to be proud ofsailer99 has much to be proud of
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Was 2613 notified they were going to be disabled and were they given the opportunity to fix it? Had a robot been disabled earlier for non-compliance or were they given the opportunity to fix it? It would be nice to know for future events whether this was a one time call in the finals or whether the refs had made calls like this before. I can't speak for the refs but if they have made a call like this before then maybe they felt they had set a precedent and had to stick to the way they had called this in the past to stay consistent.

I don't have an opinion on the calls themselves but before we sharpen our pitchforks and go after the referees we should remember the call was consistent on both sides of the field.
Reply With Quote
  #95   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 00:34
CTHP CTHP is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 11
CTHP is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Thanks Cory - and I agree completely. Pre-Match rule G7 should have been 'properly' applied here. From the official 2015 FIRST Game Manual:

G7 Violation "If fix is a quick remedy, the MATCH won't start until all requirements are met. If it is not a quick remedy the OFFENDING ROBOT will be disabled and at the discretion of the Head REFEREE must be re-inspected".

All reports from the team suggest that the extended component (maybe a fraction of an inch over) could be mechanically retracted by the push of a button. Had the judges/referees properly applied Rule G7, they should have approached the team in order to gauge how quick the fix would be and then rule appropriately. 987 could have lowered the extension in a second and then a fair and spirited match could resume. If the other alliance failed the height test during the match, and 'if' they were allowed to fix it, I don't think either side would have been upset, after all the rule would have been properly applied.

On top of that, to summarily disable the robot without notice was unwarranted and sealed the fate for the Blue Alliance in spite of Team 148’s valiant efforts.

This same sort of thing happened to 987 last year in San Diego with the overboard 50 point foul rule in the last game-deciding match just like here in Dallas. I think dialog in forums like this might have helped sway the rule makers to back away from such things like the 50 point foul which always changed the outcome. In this case the rules were appropriate, but the ones applying the rule were at fault.
Reply With Quote
  #96   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 00:43
CTHP CTHP is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 11
CTHP is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

CORRECTION TO A PREVIOUS STATEMENT

The statement "(maybe a fraction of an inch over)" is my opinion after reviewing the video about 50 times. I'll assume for the moment that with three judges starring at a tape measure at an angle (since none of them had eyeballs at 6'6" from the ground) for 10 seconds were trying to resolve a fraction of an inch in the height of the robot. If the robot was 6" over the limit we would all just throw up our hands and call it over the limit in about a second.
Reply With Quote
  #97   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 01:16
nobrakes8 nobrakes8 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Kevin
FRC #4206 (RoboVikes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 150
nobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud ofnobrakes8 has much to be proud of
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Dallas didn't really end the way I think anybody wanted it to.

From our perspective in the stands sitting directly behind the FTA and head ref it looked like they were ready to start the match with all 6 robots until the blue alliance had the female ref on their side of the field get the head ref to stop the countdown. We saw one of the coaches jumping up and down; and while that was happening a 118 driver ran up to another ref. So, we kind of thought it sucked for what happened but it looked like the blue alliance were the ones who had the match get stopped.

I will say this was just a bizarre regional with the weather, delayed start, etc.. We didn't get our robot packed and leave until 10:45 and during the playoff matches it looked like there were a lot of people short on patience as the night wore on.
Reply With Quote
  #98   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 01:40
slickvic2252's Avatar
slickvic2252 slickvic2252 is offline
mentor
AKA: Theren Vickery
FRC #2252 (Mavericks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 42
slickvic2252 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Is there any video of the matches?
Reply With Quote
  #99   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 02:19
AlexanderTheOK AlexanderTheOK is online now
Guy
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 148
AlexanderTheOK is just really niceAlexanderTheOK is just really niceAlexanderTheOK is just really niceAlexanderTheOK is just really nice
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Its near the end of the live stream of the event
Reply With Quote
  #100   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 07:34
Nemo's Avatar
Nemo Nemo is offline
Team 967 Mentor
AKA: Dan Niemitalo
FRC #0967 (Iron Lions)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 805
Nemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond reputeNemo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

It's very disappointing to hear how this event ended.

I wish certain field volunteers at FIRST events would keep their heads a bit better when events are running late. They feel pressure to get the event done so the teams and volunteers can go home after a grueling event, but saving a couple of minutes isn't worth it when it creates a highly negative experience for a group of students.

Elimination round matches where the robots aren't all working are a big letdown. Especially in the finals matches. It is worth a few minutes of conversation between referees / FTA's / lead robot inspector / drive team to sort some of this stuff out if it has the potential to avoid a screwed up final match that leaves nobody feeling satisfied in the end.
Reply With Quote
  #101   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 08:46
martin417's Avatar
martin417 martin417 is offline
Opinionated old goat
AKA: Martin Wilson
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Buford, GA
Posts: 721
martin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond reputemartin417 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrifBot View Post
People need to realize that things like this happen everywhere throughout FIRST......
This sort of thing does tend to happen often, and there is much hubbub for a while, then it quietly dies out. FIRST almost never addresses it, and there are no visible repercussions.

What should happen? Lets suppose this is the only event that one of the teams attended. This team spent almost $6,000 just for the privilege of playing, plus thousands on tools, equipment and parts to build the robot, plus travel costs. That could easily be $10,000-$15,000. If I was on that team, (assuming the allegations made here are true) I would want that money returned to me. If an error was made by an official representative of FIRST (like a referee) then the onus falls on FIRST, not that referee, so FIRST should pony up the bucks. Remember, we are customers, even though that point is rarely made. We pay money in exchange for a product. If that product is defective, we should get that money back.
__________________
Former Mentor Team 1771
Former mentor Team 4509
Reply With Quote
  #102   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 08:54
g_sawchuk's Avatar
g_sawchuk g_sawchuk is offline
Hmm.
AKA: Griffin Sawchuk
FRC #4476
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 340
g_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really niceg_sawchuk is just really nice
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
This sort of thing does tend to happen often, and there is much hubbub for a while, then it quietly dies out. FIRST almost never addresses it, and there are no visible repercussions.

What should happen? Lets suppose this is the only event that one of the teams attended. This team spent almost $6,000 just for the privilege of playing, plus thousands on tools, equipment and parts to build the robot, plus travel costs. That could easily be $10,000-$15,000. If I was on that team, (assuming the allegations made here are true) I would want that money returned to me. If an error was made by an official representative of FIRST (like a referee) then the onus falls on FIRST, not that referee, so FIRST should pony up the bucks. Remember, we are customers, even though that point is rarely made. We pay money in exchange for a product. If that product is defective, we should get that money back.
If FIRST truly wants to inspire people to pursue STEM careers, and doesn't want to risk "uninspiring" some, they should allow the entire 148 alliance entrance to worlds.
__________________
FRC 2013-2015 (K-Botics #2809)
VEX 2015 - 2016 (W.A.F.F.L.E.S. #4476)
FLL 2015 - ??? (MechMasters #16931)
FRC 2016 - ??? (W.A.F.F.L.E.S. #4476)
2016 Dean's List Finalist

My thoughts and ideas do not necessarily reflect those of my team.
Reply With Quote
  #103   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 09:16
JamesTerm's Avatar
JamesTerm JamesTerm is offline
Terminator
AKA: James Killian
FRC #3481 (Bronc Botz)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 298
JamesTerm is a splendid one to beholdJamesTerm is a splendid one to beholdJamesTerm is a splendid one to beholdJamesTerm is a splendid one to beholdJamesTerm is a splendid one to beholdJamesTerm is a splendid one to beholdJamesTerm is a splendid one to behold
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

I have nothing more to say about that call or enough time to fix, but I do wish to say that the 987 is one of my favorite robots of all time... that and team 67's robot in 2012... good job guys!
Reply With Quote
  #104   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 09:22
Koko Ed's Avatar
Koko Ed Koko Ed is offline
Serial Volunteer
AKA: Ed Patterson
FRC #0191 (X-Cats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester,NY
Posts: 22,954
Koko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond reputeKoko Ed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrifBot View Post
If FIRST truly wants to inspire people to pursue STEM careers, and doesn't want to risk "uninspiring" some, they should allow the entire 148 alliance entrance to worlds.
They're a Legacy team. They're already in.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #105   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-03-2015, 09:23
Boltman Boltman is offline
Registered User
FRC #5137 (Iron Kodiaks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 861
Boltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud ofBoltman has much to be proud of
Re: 2 v 3 in Dallas

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
This sort of thing does tend to happen often, and there is much hubbub for a while, then it quietly dies out. FIRST almost never addresses it, and there are no visible repercussions.

What should happen? Lets suppose this is the only event that one of the teams attended. This team spent almost $6,000 just for the privilege of playing, plus thousands on tools, equipment and parts to build the robot, plus travel costs. That could easily be $10,000-$15,000. If I was on that team, (assuming the allegations made here are true) I would want that money returned to me. If an error was made by an official representative of FIRST (like a referee) then the onus falls on FIRST, not that referee, so FIRST should pony up the bucks. Remember, we are customers, even though that point is rarely made. We pay money in exchange for a product. If that product is defective, we should get that money back.
78" is the limit so in that regard they were ruled by more than one judge too high that violates the rules. If people were challenging that is WAS under 78" then OK but it was OVER 78"

As for should they be allowed to rectify it (delaying game) that's much more of a grey area rule and seeing how the event was running late they made a call not to allow the extended time. ...which is one of two options... extend or not extend..a judgement call.

IMO a robot should never exceed 78" as part of its design in any conditions or placement and should not need to have the benefit of alteration on the field to be under 78". That rule has been there since DAY 1 same as 120 lbs (those are absolute limits)...now if High Rollers got smashed and bent out of shape the prior match then I would agree allow the time but that did not happen and they were out of their usual auto score everything spot....adding scrutiny from new eyes at the center of the field as it took forever to get that match started.

I have no issue with the ruling and High Rollers will still get into Worlds somehow they are an amazing robot/team and always tough.

In the end 78" is 78" and over that can trigger a disable...live with it. Robonaghts/Kryptonight alliance also deserved the Dallas Win they were amazing too and also had disabled bots too to get there....so lets not take away from the Winning Alliance...that let I remind you used only their 2nd robot in a quarter final match and it scored 95 solo.
__________________

Iron Kodiaks Team #5137 San Marcos, CA

2016 Semi-Finalist | Central Valley Alliance Captain #2
2016 Semi-Finalist | San Diego 2nd bot alliance #8
2015 Semi-Finalist | Ventura 3rd bot alliance #3
2015 Quarter-Finalist| San Diego 2nd bot alliance #5
2014 Rookie All-Star | #21 San Diego | Galileo Division #91

Last edited by Boltman : 01-03-2015 at 09:31.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:52.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi