Al's Annual Inspection Thread 2015

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Thanks.

If a team is using a Talon or Jag in PWM mode, do we still need to check the firmware version?

There are no firmware requirements for Jaguars used in PWM mode. There are firmware requirements for Talon SRXs in PWM mode (But not Talons or Talon SRs). The Talon SRX user manual gives several methods to determine if the firmware version is less then 0.28.

[FrankJ]

The load on the pressure switch is in the milliamps. The electrical danger of shorting the switch is miniscule. It is also clearly against the rules for using this method for charging the air system. To say the observing youth cannot understand the difference is almost silly.

Now if you are using a screwdriver to bypass the worn out solenoid on your VW Beetle's starter motor....

[Thad House]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

You should not have to worry because it will only reach 125 when being tested.

Yeah, but if you have it set to never let the pressure go above 125, depending on the pressure switch, the relief will start letting out pressure before the switch detects its at full pressure. We've had to go find different pressure switches before, because the switch would trigger at 115, but the relief valve started releasing air at 110, in order to make it so pressure never got above 125.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Thad House

Yeah, but if you have it set to never let the pressure go above 125, depending on the pressure switch, the relief will start letting out pressure before the switch detects its at full pressure. We've had to go find different pressure switches before, because the switch would trigger at 115, but the relief valve started releasing air at 110, in order to make it so pressure never got above 125.

I've seen several inspectors flip out over this one.

The KOP release valve also doesn't always trigger at exactly the same psi, which has caused some inspectors to ask us to keep adjusting it.

[FrankJ]

I always set the cracking pressure, the pressure that the relief first opens to 125 PSI. The full flow pressure is somewhat higher. The re-seat pressure is usually somewhat lower. If the pressure is different at inspection, we adjust to accommodate the inspector. It is not a precision device. You do not want the cracking pressure anywhere near the working pressure.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Thad House

Something Ive always wondered, and I've always gotten different answers to. Is the 125 for the pressure relief valve the pressure it releases to, or the pressure it starts releasing. I've always seen that if its set to never let the pressure go above 125, it usually reliefs down to about 110 psi. If we set it so it wont let the pressure go above 135, if reliefs down to 125. Which method is correct? Some inspectors ive seen want it one way, and some want it another.

Originally Posted by FrankJ

I always set the cracking pressure, the pressure that the relief first opens to 125 PSI. The full flow pressure is somewhat higher. The re-seat pressure is usually somewhat lower. If the pressure is different at inspection, we adjust to accommodate the inspector. It is not a precision device. You do not want the cracking pressure anywhere near the working pressure.

^What this guy said.

The specific wording "... to release air at 125psi..." is the key phrase. Does the valve release air at 125psi (or lower)? If yes, you're good to go. If no, then you're illegal. Thus I would wager your first setup to be correct, where it opens at 125psi and closes at 110psi. Allowing the pressure to reach 135 psi is CLEARLY a violation of the rules [R76] blue box.

[Gary Dillard]

I'm hearing reports of robots using > 7 MB/S (Rule R49) which seem to be causing other robots to lose comms and reset. There's no penalty listed for the rule, if it's identified by FMS during a match it seems like they shouldn't be allowed to compete until they correct it, but how do you test it?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

I always set the cracking pressure, the pressure that the relief first opens to 125 PSI. The full flow pressure is somewhat higher. The re-seat pressure is usually somewhat lower. If the pressure is different at inspection, we adjust to accommodate the inspector. It is not a precision device. You do not want the cracking pressure anywhere near the working pressure.

That's the way I've always done it. The goal is to keep pressures safe and for the relief valve never to release air unless there is a problem with system, i.e. the stored air reaches above 125psi.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

WoW! I go on vacation for a few days to Duluth and the thread goes wild. So first to a few answers,
Jon, We don't have as much storage as we used to and do have stuff that goes most of the way back. We're resourceful and nostalgic. (OK so I am)
Shorting out the pressure switch is the prescribed method for checking the over pressure valve as described by FIRST staff and that method has been used since the manufacturer stopped supplying the valve pre-calibrated. A good team member or inspector will check that the valve vents above 125 psi after calibration and tightening of the lock ring. It is not calibrated if it vents below 125 psi.
Shorting out the pressure switch, attaching another compressor or bypassing the robot control system to charge the pneumatic system in queue or on the field has never been legal. Do not listen to the team that tells you it is. There are considerable penalties in the rules (game, robot and tournament).

Now on to a few items that were issues during week one.
Latest, greatest firmware.
The most recent version of the Inspection Checklist has a great list of the all the firmware required for this week of competition. If and when that changes, the Checklist will be updated. Go to the appropriate website now and download the firmware versions for the PDP, PCM, RoboRio, Jag and Talon, and driver station. Bring those with you so you can load them prior to inspection. The version numbers are displayed on the Dashboard diagnostic tab.

Software Versions – Software/firmware for devices is at or above listed versions (As of March 2, 2015)
Driver Station – 08021500 or newer <R80> (Note the version number is a date in the format of, DD/MM/YY00)
roboRIO – v23 and 2.1.0f3 <R45>
Talon SRX – v.28 for PWM, v1.01 for CAN <R41, R59>
Jaguars – v109 <R59>
PCM – v1.62 <R60>
PDP – v1.37 <R61>

Team Numbers,
Must be 3.5 inches high or greater, 1/2" stroke or greater and must be black on white background with 1" (white) border all the way around. Nearly half of all robots at Duluth needed number adjustments.

We saw some teams show up with old, white pneumatic storage tanks. While the manufacturer was giving free exchange for tanks last year, that is no longer taking place. You will be required to replace any old tanks prior to competing.

[Batterink]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

We saw some teams show up with old, white pneumatic storage tanks. While the manufacturer was giving free exchange for tanks last year, that is no longer taking place. You will be required to replace any old tanks prior to competing.

We have none clippard white tanks. They were legal last year. Are all white tanks now disallowed?, or still just the clippard white tanks?

Also. When we went to do our checklist and update our firmware on bag and tag day, we noticed that the pdp doesn't who up anywhere (DS, or on the web interface thingy). Does anyone know of a solution to this? or should we be ordering a new pdp for comp?

Thanks in advance.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Batterink

Also. When we went to do our checklist and update our firmware on bag and tag day, we noticed that the pdp doesn't who up anywhere (DS, or on the web interface thingy). Does anyone know of a solution to this? or should we be ordering a new pdp for comp?

Thanks in advance.

You must connect the PDP to the RoboRio via CAN even if you do not use the CAN buss for anything else. The PDP data collection function will be used in logs for other purposes and needs to be connected and the firmware up to date.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

I'm hearing reports of robots using > 7 MB/S (Rule R49) which seem to be causing other robots to lose comms and reset. There's no penalty listed for the rule, if it's identified by FMS during a match it seems like they shouldn't be allowed to compete until they correct it, but how do you test it?

You are correct that R49 has no penalty associated with it. That might be a good QA question- I would assume that the answer is that they will not be allowed to play if it is repeated or causing problems for other teams.

Generally if I see a team using > 7 Mb/s, I let them know they need to fix it, and it stops being a problem. If it happens a second time, I'll send a CSA after them, and that is the end of it.

WPI has a page on how to measure bandwidth usage.

[Batterink]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

You must connect the PDP to the RoboRio via CAN even if you do not use the CAN buss for anything else. The PDP data collection function will be used in logs for other purposes and needs to be connected and the firmware up to date.

We had it connected via can. (I was told by the electrical person that it was correctly and securely connected) Hopefully it was just a bad connections or wire. However, is it possible that the pdp can is broken, but the pdp is still functional?

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Thad House

Something Ive always wondered, and I've always gotten different answers to. Is the 125 for the pressure relief valve the pressure it releases to, or the pressure it starts releasing. I've always seen that if its set to never let the pressure go above 125, it usually reliefs down to about 110 psi. If we set it so it wont let the pressure go above 135, if reliefs down to 125. Which method is correct? Some inspectors ive seen want it one way, and some want it another.

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

A good team member or inspector will check that the valve vents above 125 psi after calibration and tightening of the lock ring. It is not calibrated if it vents below 125 psi.

Just to be clear, which of the 2 methods described by Thad House is correct? Should it begin venting at ~115psi, or at 125psi?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Batt,
It is possible to have a problem in wiring or to have an issue with the CAN bus interfaces. I suggest checking the user's manual for the PDP first and then try checking with CTRE to see if there is something else that you can check.

The correct operation is to vent at 125 psi or above. This part has a repeatability of +/- at least 2 psi. A good indication is a wet finger on top of the valve. Venting will cause some bubbles.