[FRC Blog] Event Results and API Data

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by plnyyanks

I also agree with the idea of a greater open-source initiative on the part of FIRST.

Greater than the FRC event API? That's pretty darned open. Anyone can take the data from the events and massage it and display it anyway they want. I myself have plans to work with it but no time yet.

Open source for the FMS is pretty silly. You cannot test and validate it without all of the specialized hardware required for a field and you cannot do any coding on the part that changes yearly (the scoring) without knowing the details of a game that's kept secret.

[nathanwalters]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Greater than the FRC event API? That's pretty darned open. Anyone can take the data from the events and massage it and display it anyway they want. I myself have plans to work with it but no time yet.

Open source for the FMS is pretty silly. You cannot test and validate it without all of the specialized hardware required for a field and you cannot do any coding on the part that changes yearly (the scoring) without knowing the details of a game that's kept secret.

The scoring part isn't really the issue here; it seems to be data storage and transport that needs a lot of work. A properly designed system would let you work on all of that independent of the scoring components. And, as it's already been stated, the scoring components can still be released on kickoff for other individuals to review.

And no, the FRC event API is not open. It couldn't get any more closed. Public data != open-source software.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Greater than the FRC event API? That's pretty darned open. Anyone can take the data from the events and massage it and display it anyway they want. I myself have plans to work with it but no time yet.

I think you're misunderstanding what we mean by open source, and are confusing it with a publicly available API. From Wikipedia:

In production and development, open source as a development model promotes a universal access via a free license to a product's design or blueprint, and universal redistribution of that design or blueprint, including subsequent improvements to it by anyone.

For some more information about open source development models, read through this page

The FRC API is not open source, because I can not access the code running on FIRST's servers. They have published an interface for the API, but not the implementation details.

For example, it would have been beneficial to have the API open source this past weekend, when it went belly up. If members of the community had access to the source code, they could have been able to find the root cause of the issue and helped collaborate with FIRST on a fix. This would result in faster iteration and higher quality code.

A popular project that embodies many benefits of open source is the Linux kernel. It's the basis for a totally free (as in libre, not gratis) operating system, and is very heavily used in development circles. It is community written (over 4,500 different people have contributed), and is (in my opinion, but debate on this can be for another thread) the best OS out there.

As for your comments about FMS - it may not be feasible to run the software without access to the field hardware, but there is still value in making it open source. Namely, increased transparency. If people have the ability to go through the source and understand how it works, a lot of the mystery is taken out of plugging into the field (when you know exactly what is happening behind the scoring table). It would also let the community understand how and why some of the bugs in FMS (and believe me, they exist) are there, and possibly contribute to a fix, which means the bug could be patched faster than it would be otherwise.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Greater than the FRC event API? That's pretty darned open. Anyone can take the data from the events and massage it and display it anyway they want. I myself have plans to work with it but no time yet.

Open source for the FMS is pretty silly. You cannot test and validate it without all of the specialized hardware required for a field and you cannot do any coding on the part that changes yearly (the scoring) without knowing the details of a game that's kept secret.

It's also pretty darned broken.

And on the topic of testing without knowing the game, that is just wrong. It's absolutely possible to test data transport without knowing the game. And a properly architected system should just have game specific actions as part of a workflow anyway.

[AdamStockton]

Originally Posted by nathanwalters

And no, the FRC event API is not open. It couldn't get any more closed. Public data != open-source software.

The API is somewhat "open" in a sense that they are taking suggestions from the community (in the team forge discussions) for the implementation of the API. However, the source code is completely closed to the public.

You are definitely right, just because public data is available doesn't make it an open source project. I think some people are confusing the difference between data and code.