frustrated FRC mentor needs advice

[EmileH]

One thing that we have on 3467 is a simple "ten commandments" list that all team members are expected to follow. I believe that your team can benefit from a base set of guidelines and then build off of that. Last year was 3467's first time in our four years of being a team that we had a "Team Handbook" which went into the nitty-gritty of how students are to behave, communicate, and clean, which helped us in terms of team leadership & etc.

TEAM 3467 TEN COMMANDMENTS
I. Do Unto Others….Demonstrate Gracious
Professionalism to your teammates, your mentors,
and your competitors.
II. Better safe than run over by a renegade robot.
i.e. When working on the robot
electrical, the power gets shut off. When working on it
mechanically, all electronics are covered with a jacket
or blanket. If people are within 2-3feet of the robot, it
must be disabled.
III. Of those to whom much is given, much is expected.
In other words, lend a hand in teaching, building,
serving, designing or cleaning.
IV. Life is short; show initiative. When in doubt, find out
what’s next on the list!
V. Diversify: in addition to building, have meaningful
participation in outreach or fundraising events each
year.
VI. Communicate. Stay informed daily. Respond
promptly.
VII. I document; therefore, I am.
VIII. Keep it clean—the shop, the robot design, your
behavior, your mouth.
IX. Show up in mind and body. Be on time.
X. When building, think outside the box; when
following team rules, think inside the framework.
Actions have consequences—make them good!

[JamesCH95]

I will echo the need for more mentors. Students come and go, funding waxes and wanes, facilities grow and shrink, but mentors can be forever. They are what anchor a team and allow it to be successful.

Specifically, a team needs mentors with the same attitude and objectives for the program. Nothing creates friction like disparate attitudes and objectives.

[Seth Mallory]

Talk to the senior mentor for for your area. She or he maybe able to help you fine other mentors. Also she or he maybe able to help with advising the coach. If you are near by I would be willing as a regular mentor to come and help in any way that would be a benefit.

[Tom Hand]

Mary, I have seen very similar things and would love to share experience with you. If you have time and would like to do so, thand@kc.rr.com. I can't type worth a darn or I'd start typing here. 😀

Tom

[DonRotolo]

My take is that some people are really process-oriented and well-organized, and some people are not. Being in the former and not the latter, I also get frustrated by disorganization and poor planning.

If you can get the teacher to admit that organization is not his strong point, you can then take concrete steps towards lasting improvement.

I had written a lot more, but to cut to the chase: Get a few more adults to help. Parents are a great resource - one as purchasing agent, at least, so things happen. Anyone, even a day a week.

Don't let the event go by without impressing on any kid who might return next year: Fielding a robot like this is an embarrassment, they should feel badly, but you can explain to them how to do a lot better next year, if they want to.

Then, staring September, meet 6 to 8 times to roll out the new program and get kids to buy in.

But it all starts with the teacher admitting there's a problem. If you can't make that happen, see the post above from T^2 about cutting your losses and finding a different team.

[mac]

Originally Posted by MaryJ

I'm a new FRC mentor to a small team. For some background, I have been involved in FIRST (FTC / FLL) for several years as a volunteer coach, judge, and referee. My teams have been fortunate enough to make it to the FIRST Championship a couple of times due to the hard work of the kids as well as their organization and willingness to learn. I love FIRST, and I love that the kids on my teams do great things besides building robots, too.

I have carefully observed the last couple of FRC games before finally taking the plunge this year to help out a team that has been largely unsuccessful on the field but that has some great kids and a nice coach who also teaches a tech class at the school that is partially also for learning about FRC (basically, a robotics class, although it is called something else) . They don't have any other mentors, and the coach seemed in a little bit over his head even though the team is a few years old.

Budget is not an issue with this team, but organization is. After having spent a build season with them, I am struggling with how to help them when the other adult seems to drop the ball on just about every responsibility that he has. We are exact opposites. I am busy putting together schedules (or helping kids learn how to do so), showing them how to use tools, talking about the strategy involved in the game, and otherwise trying to stimulate their brains. He basically doesn't do anything at all, and is frequently playing games on his phone with the kids are doing something that may or may not be related to the robot or preparing for the competition. I've tried so many times to draw him in to the discussion, but I just get a "yes, that's what I thought of, too".

Anyway, a few examples of what I am dealing with:

He put off ordering the parts for 3 weeks after kickoff. Half of the stuff we needed was out of stock by that time.

The kids have never learned CAD, programing, game strategy. There are several seniors who have been on the team for years, and they don't know how to use as much as a wrench.

At his request, I put together a schedule for the season, with target deadline dates for different parts of the robot, etc. I worked closely with some of the students on this, and by the end they were doing it themselves. This is what I do with my FTC team, and they really buy into it and hold themselves accountable. The result? He says "Oh, that timeline unrealistic, anyway."

The last three years, the team has shown up at the competition with a partially built robot and relied on other teams to help them get going. I can see why.

About half the kids are motivated and think that FIRST is cool. They deserve better than this, and I intend to help them. Others are just there for an easy grade, don't allow themselves to be engaged, and are brought along to competition even though they just socialize or play on their phone the entire time. I intend to help them as well, as best as I can. They need something to be excited about. The team has never won anything - not that it's about winning - but they've also never fielded a competitive robot. There has been a big learning void.

Probably the biggest issue I have is that the workspace is always a mess. There are tripping hazards, sharp objects, etc. I spend half the time cleaning up, and I have finally got some of the kids to help with this. However, he is a hoarder and gets annoyed when we put things away because then he "can't find anything." I think the place is not safe, and then people tell me it is 100 times better than last year. There are also so many lost / misplaced parts that I am sure we have re-purchased things we already have in stock.

Again, the teacher is a nice guy, and does other things well, but managing an FRC team does not seem to be his area of expertise.

We identified some parts that we need to finish the robot two weeks ago, and they have still not been ordered. They are kind of critical. Our competition is a little over a week away, so we are probably toast. I am sad because the kids are so elated about getting a working robot by themselves, without having another team build it at competition for them. But there are still some parts missing.

Anyway, this is partly me venting, but also a cry for help. I hate worrying about this and it is stressing me out. I feel like a failure for not being able to get this person to see the light. It was an interesting experiment, but I'm not cut out for it. But I don't want to let down the kids. I can't let down the kids.

Has anyone else experienced a similar situation, and what did you do?

Hi Mary, Mentor Mac here. I would like to help you out. Right now I work with Bovine Intervention strong student run team, and Jagbots more adult leadership but they have more well defined group settings, (7 students doing CAD). I hope I'm closer then 791 miles. Been with FIRST since 2005. Here is my Email:mccubbin99@live.com. I live in Mt.Airy, Maryland. Before things fall part. Drop back and do VEX robotics. Put 3 students one robot. So you have Team (*##*(&* A, B, C, D etc. Less money spent. More ownership by members. Good luck. God bless.

[mac]

Originally Posted by MaryJ

I'm a new FRC mentor to a small team. For some background, I have been involved in FIRST (FTC / FLL) for several years as a volunteer coach, judge, and referee. My teams have been fortunate enough to make it to the FIRST Championship a couple of times due to the hard work of the kids as well as their organization and willingness to learn. I love FIRST, and I love that the kids on my teams do great things besides building robots, too.

I have carefully observed the last couple of FRC games before finally taking the plunge this year to help out a team that has been largely unsuccessful on the field but that has some great kids and a nice coach who also teaches a tech class at the school that is partially also for learning about FRC (basically, a robotics class, although it is called something else) . They don't have any other mentors, and the coach seemed in a little bit over his head even though the team is a few years old.

Budget is not an issue with this team, but organization is. After having spent a build season with them, I am struggling with how to help them when the other adult seems to drop the ball on just about every responsibility that he has. We are exact opposites. I am busy putting together schedules (or helping kids learn how to do so), showing them how to use tools, talking about the strategy involved in the game, and otherwise trying to stimulate their brains. He basically doesn't do anything at all, and is frequently playing games on his phone with the kids are doing something that may or may not be related to the robot or preparing for the competition. I've tried so many times to draw him in to the discussion, but I just get a "yes, that's what I thought of, too".

Anyway, a few examples of what I am dealing with:

He put off ordering the parts for 3 weeks after kickoff. Half of the stuff we needed was out of stock by that time.

The kids have never learned CAD, programing, game strategy. There are several seniors who have been on the team for years, and they don't know how to use as much as a wrench.

At his request, I put together a schedule for the season, with target deadline dates for different parts of the robot, etc. I worked closely with some of the students on this, and by the end they were doing it themselves. This is what I do with my FTC team, and they really buy into it and hold themselves accountable. The result? He says "Oh, that timeline unrealistic, anyway."

The last three years, the team has shown up at the competition with a partially built robot and relied on other teams to help them get going. I can see why.

About half the kids are motivated and think that FIRST is cool. They deserve better than this, and I intend to help them. Others are just there for an easy grade, don't allow themselves to be engaged, and are brought along to competition even though they just socialize or play on their phone the entire time. I intend to help them as well, as best as I can. They need something to be excited about. The team has never won anything - not that it's about winning - but they've also never fielded a competitive robot. There has been a big learning void.

Probably the biggest issue I have is that the workspace is always a mess. There are tripping hazards, sharp objects, etc. I spend half the time cleaning up, and I have finally got some of the kids to help with this. However, he is a hoarder and gets annoyed when we put things away because then he "can't find anything." I think the place is not safe, and then people tell me it is 100 times better than last year. There are also so many lost / misplaced parts that I am sure we have re-purchased things we already have in stock.

Again, the teacher is a nice guy, and does other things well, but managing an FRC team does not seem to be his area of expertise.

We identified some parts that we need to finish the robot two weeks ago, and they have still not been ordered. They are kind of critical. Our competition is a little over a week away, so we are probably toast. I am sad because the kids are so elated about getting a working robot by themselves, without having another team build it at competition for them. But there are still some parts missing.

Anyway, this is partly me venting, but also a cry for help. I hate worrying about this and it is stressing me out. I feel like a failure for not being able to get this person to see the light. It was an interesting experiment, but I'm not cut out for it. But I don't want to let down the kids. I can't let down the kids.

Has anyone else experienced a similar situation, and what did you do?

Hi Mary, Mentor Mac here. I would like to help you out. Right now I work with Bovine Intervention strong student run team, and Jagbots more adult leadership but they have more well defined group settings, (7 students doing CAD). I hope I'm closer then 791 miles. Been with FIRST since 2005. Here is my Email:mccubbin99@live.com. I live in Mt.Airy, Maryland. Before things fall part. Drop back and do VEX robotics. Put 3 students one robot. So you have Team (*##*(&* A, B, C, D etc. Less money spent. More ownership by members. Good luck. God bless.

[MaryJ]

Wow, thank you again for all the advice and the kind offers of help. I'm not giving up, yet.

Our #1 priority this offseason will be to attract new mentors.

The teacher has agreed that it is "sometimes difficult to find important parts" and that storage drawers and other organizational mechanisms would be helpful, and would like to purchase some.

So maybe there is something of an opening, there.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by MaryJ

Wow, thank you again for all the advice and the kind offers of help. I'm not giving up, yet.

Our #1 priority this offseason will be to attract new mentors.

The teacher has agreed that it is "sometimes difficult to find important parts" and that storage drawers and other organizational mechanisms would be helpful, and would like to purchase some.

So maybe there is something of an opening, there.

Spot on...more mentors!

Also kudos on organizing tools thoughts.... do stuff like mark batteries with the year you bought them etc. An organized shop is a more efficient shop. Like I said go ask for tool donations we got so much from Harbor Freight each season even good stuff.

Put lots of this on students...but mentors should provide the framework and aid as necessary. Let mentors do what they like you'll get more done that way. So if ordering is not the teachers cup-o-tea take it off his plate. Let him pick another thing to do. Mentors can cross over and offer tidbits here and there on other areas...which can be ultra useful but I think its better to specialize as a mentor. Be the mentor of ONE major thing and cross over advice on other areas as you see opportunity. This is why you should aim for at least 5 mentors. Getting the right people in the right areas is crucial. Also remember only bite off what you can do well...plan plan plan then build...but order all parts you KNOW you'll need early or parts that you know you will eventually want to use if not this year next...try to settle on design in a week. Most of all have FUN..and finish your bot on time!..so you can enjoy the competition.

Do not try to be a 3 day bot or Powerhouse... be yourself do what your team does well! 3 day bots are not necessarily the best designs. You might be surprised at how effective your own unique design can be (I was) ... don't be a lemming...be spectacular in your own way. Sometimes its the simplest thing that wins in championships...look to a team like the Holy Cows for inspiration. 2013 World Championship 1st Seed, Newton Division, Finalist, Chairman’s Award. Look at how they won in 2013. They found what worked.

Here a link to their publicly available team manual. They have good organization. A nice example of a solid Mentor framework.

http://team1538.com/downloads/2014handbook.pdf

I'm sure they don't mind me mentioning them or sharing their manual as its a very good example of how to be an effective FRC team. They were very helpful in helping us get off the ground last year and cluing us into what it takes to be a good FRC team. You need a strong team like that (that's willing to help) to lean on initially when you are new at FRC FIRST. Now we know what to do one year in... and plan to compete at their level this year. One year makes all the difference. So much better second season.

Check out this thread too lots of good resources.....
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=59475

Get to St. Louis actually seeing world best bots in action gives you something to shoot for...preferably with your team competing...its a whole different level than divisional. We were slow..guess what we fixed that this year now bots this year we see in action look slow which is good for us. Its not a one year deal..its consistent improvement year over year. Do not try to do it all in one season...just lay the framework for the next...and do your best...and enjoy the season. This is supposed to be fun.

[ElvisMom]

Do they do any field trips to local manufacturers? Might be interesting for the kids to see how a business' shop looks like from an organization perspective. Or the local community college or university engineering lab.

Could help both the students and the teacher see the difference.

But be sure to check it out in advance so it doesn't backfire.

[philso]

It sounds like you have a potential problem with the trip hazards and probably other hazards. A serious accident could get your team shut down or it could lose the use of the current build space.

Our team had a similarly messy build space last year. It was in a side room off a classroom. This year, we shifted to another school (we have students from over 6-7 schools) and got a fresh start. The team now cleans up at the end of each evening because they are now using a classroom that other students will use in the morning.

Even with good funding, your team probably cannot afford to lose or have someone step on important components like RoboRios.

Perhaps some teams with well organized build spaces can post photos as examples. I can think of two here in Houston that would make excellent examples. Having the tools, parts and materials well organized makes the build process go so much smoother and faster. Your team may want to invest in some storage cabinets/cases and tool boxes.

[Riverdance]

Something that I will say definitely helped our team in a time when our administrative position was shaky and our organization was kind of up in the air was getting the parents involved. We had an administrative conflict at the beginning of last season that left our core a little bit shaken and our last season was very up in the air; we survived mostly on out-of-pocket expenses from existing mentors and the generosity of our school district, who had never provided us with much in the way of funding previously. This season, when we recruited new members, we made an effort to engage their parents, with outstanding success.

How will this help you, you ask? The new parents have brought a level of balance never before seen on our team, which is exactly what you need. Balance. Seeing as you and this teacher are the only two mentors involved, there is nobody to second a motion put forth by either of you, and if there is a disagreement you are immediately at a stalemate. My first suggestion would be to adopt a strategy to management similar to that of my team: put together a "council" comprised of yourself, the teacher, a few parent mentors, and student management members elected by the team themselves. Make sure that the students up for election are the dedicated sort that you mentioned, and not just the ones there for an easy grade. This system has served my team well, but never when our management students continually drop the ball, stop coming out to meetings, and stop doing their job.

Once you have a system like that in place, you will start to see a drop in occurrences such as parts being ordered late or not at all -- not only will more people be held accountable for the parts being ordered and ordered on time, almost guaranteeing that somebody will do it, more people will be making the decisions regarding what is ordered in the first place. This hits two birds with one stone -- the students get management experience and get more involved in the program. They feel like their opinions matter.

Of course, like I said, this entire plan is hinging on you guys getting the parents involved. Unless the teacher in question has a serious power issue, he shouldn't be averse to having more parents join in. In particular, you are looking for parents with experience in relevant fields. This will help with the learning curve that you have with the students involved on the team. If you have more parent mentor with experience in the fields that are necessary for the kids to learn, they will be able to learn more and contribute more to the overall robot build process. In turn, this will help with the lack of dedication that you've been seeing. Since they are the ones doing the actual building, they will be more invested in the outcome. You won't have as many kids sitting on their phones during competition, because they will want to help to make sure their robot is working and cheer the robot on when it does eventually get onto the field.

Sorry if this is totally incoherent and useless, I'm very tired and probably should have left this until tomorrow. I hope this helped you at least a little bit, and feel free to PM me with any further questions or if you need clarification -- I am always here to help!

[MaryJ]

These are great ideas, and I really appreciate the support. The stress of build season moving into competition season is something I've really not experienced before, and the organizational part of my brain just totally fries when we waste time and money, when we have such a small staff to begin with.

Coach doesn't seem to want to discuss any of it, but I have found a connected (to the coach) person I can ask for some advice in dealing with the individual in a more constructive way (I hope!) Cross your fingers. And thank you all again for the outpouring of support!

[Williane]

Dear Mary, I am new posting replies but I wanted to give you my two cents. It is nice to see how you have been working hard with the students and how much you care for the team. It is a big jump from FLL/FTC to FRC and it is interesting how you fit nicely into the program. You are right in all your concerns but I promise you that if you continue helping things will get better. This first step is always identify the problems and try to find a solution. Reaching to the FRC community is a great way.

You asked if anyone else experienced a similar situation, here is my experience:

“Budget is not an issue with this team, but organization is.” – Maybe that is where the teacher should focus and help the team. It is a full time job to run the business side of the program and bring funds to the team, plus outreach, documentation, travel, and relationship with the school. Looks like you will be a great help in the tech side. That is how we divide our team also, we have a teacher that coaches the business, media, outreach, etc. and I coach the tech area and groups, plus most of the team management like rules, organization, since I have more experience with FRC and time. I have done both in the past, tech and business, and I can say they both take the same time and effort when done well, what looks like your teacher do.
“We are exact opposites.” – When we founded 1510, coming from 955, I was coaching, my husband was the Head Mentor, and my sons were students. We had complete different ideas and goals, it was a blessing. My husband and I spent weeks discussing what the job of a mentor was and we came up with some nice balance that has been working well with our new team 4488. Our Adult, Mentors and Student leaders also don’t agree with each other 100% of the time, as most teams. We talk, we listen, and we respect whatever decision was made as a group. Works great. It is an opportunity for us to teach teamwork by example. Our difference of opinion complete each other, we see other sides that we may have not pay attention before. Our business coach says we are like a puzzle, all pieces fit well together.

“He put off ordering the parts for 3 weeks after kickoff.” – How do you ask him to order parts, by email or in person? We use a Google Drive doc where lead students and mentors can add parts they need. They add the web link, quantity, price, total, who is asking for it, and notes of where it will be used and why we need it. Plus priority shipping. Our Head Mentor or I approve the parts and once list is final we ask the business coach to purchase it. It is very hard for the person purchasing to have emails coming asking to buy parts or having to do it every day. We try to keep the purchase done 2 times a week, sending one single message that the list is ready or when something is urgent. Sometimes we place all items in the cart during our team meeting and call him to pay, this also helps expedite the order and avoid mistakes.

“I spend half the time cleaning up” - Welcome to my world, but if you keep teaching they will learn and notice how cool the room is. It will start to reflect on your pit and robot also. Now it doesn’t matter we worked 12 hours that day, the students still care for every detail of the robot. We have some rules about cleaning and it is highly considered on leadership application. We are of the opinion that there is no small job and everyone should help.

“Again, the teacher is a nice guy, and does other things well, but managing an FRC team does not seem to be his area of expertise.” – Having a teacher supporting the team is the most important thing for a team to succeed. I have coached a team with no school support and met many in the same situation, I would never want to live it again. Teachers are a treasure you need to keep safely. He sounds like a good person, he accepted you as a mentor and has been supporting your decisions. Once you bring other mentors to help you it will be much easier.

Please let me know if you need any help.

[stuart2054]

we also have a small team and cohesiveness is a
large issue. Some times you need to go with the flow. Improve where you can make a diference.