G10, The Dallas Disable & Crickets Chirping in Manchester

[Bryan Herbst]

The issue we ran into at Lake Superior is that often times teams don't want to turn on their robot until after they have finished getting out of their transport configuration, as working on the robot while it is on can present a safety issue.

However, what this means, is that we significantly increase the cycle time, because the flow for teams goes something like this and nothing can happen in parallel:

1. Get robot on the field
2. Exit transport configuration (up to 60 seconds)
3. Position robot in the correct location (we all know some teams can take a long time here)
4. Turn on robot and get back to driver station

G10 has been around for a while, primarily to minimize the effect of #3.
#4 can also be excruciatingly slow.

If we assume each of these tasks takes about a minute, that plus the match takes up pretty much the entirety of the 7 minute cycle, and we haven't even thought about any potential issues teams might have connecting to the field, the MC introducing teams, and the gap between the end of the match and the field going green.

The way we handled it at Lake Superior was that we pushed teams to turn their robots on as soon as (safely) possible. If I noticed that a team was on the field longer than their alliance partners, that is when I would glance at the clock and start watching them more closely. If a minute or so passed (I gave very lenient minutes) and they weren't off the field yet, I let them know it was time to start moving. We never called any G10s, and by eliminations every team had their system down to a workable time.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Along similar lines...Transport Configuration.

I'm curious how it was enforced and implemented in other areas of the country. In South Florida- teams were permitted to exit Transport Configuration once they reached the on-deck queue boxes.

Will this be the norm? Is this how it was done in other venues?

-Brando

In Nashua teams modified their robots on the field and before they took them off. I don't recall seeing anyone held to the 60 second time limit however there were moments where we needed to push a few teams to finish setup.

The transport mode really messes with getting robots on and off the field in timely manners. A lot of people mentioned field reset was going to take a really long time this year and limit the cycle time per match. After doing it for a weekend its the transport configuration that is holding up the process because it takes longer for teams to setup and leave the field holding up the next round of teams. We found this combined with moving teams in a High School gym (where most districts are held) wasn't optimal since the limited room for staging caused many traffic jams.

[rick.oliver]

I believe that none of us are customers; neither teams nor HQ or GDC. Rather, we are members of a community. A community comprised almost entirely of volunteers.

"Gracious Professionalism is part of the ethos of FIRST. It's a way of doing things that encourages high-quality work, emphasizes the value of others, and respects individuals and the community."

Emphasis mine. I agree that Frank, "gets it" and lives it and is encouraging all of us to do the same.

[Tungrus]

...crickets will be chirping till next season.

We remind our drive team to be wary of G2, G10 and G14. Over excited or shocked team members' actions are hard to predict.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

1. When does the 2 minutes start?

Assuming when you enter the field with the Robot you proceed directly to your placement point, and that the placement point is not blocked by a leaving robot: It starts when you in the general area of the placement point.

2. What if field reset people are in the way?

Assuming the field reset people are inhibiting your ability to setup the robot, an allowance will be made.

3. What if the person timing the 60 seconds isn't using a stop watch?

60 seconds is a guide, not a requirement. Hence, a regular watch is sufficient. If you are at your placement point at 3:35:00 pm, then your 60 seconds is up at 3:36:00 pm.

4. What if my robot doesn't get on the field until 30 seconds after your robot? When does the time start then? Are there multiple time keepers?

Each robot has its own 60 second period. If your team unnecessarily delays entering the field (standing around yacking and not entering the field when they are first able to) then that delay will count against your 60 seconds.

That said: the 60 second rule gets progressively more strict as the tournament proceeds. Numerous teams were warned at the beginning of qualification matches when they were taking too long. By the time we got to the elimination matches, we didn't have a problem with setup.

If we were having a problem, here is what I would do: I would identify the problem teams, and make it clear to them when the 60 seconds starts (stand there and say your 60 seconds starts now). I would warn them at 50 seconds, and again at 60 seconds. I would then give them 15 seconds to clear the field. At that point, they would have earned the disabled. Whether they are disabled or not would depend upon whether they are delaying the start, or if other things are going on (field connection problems with another bot, another bot still in their 60 seconds, etc.).

BTW: By the time you get to 50 seconds, you should make sure the robot can play as is. That is, it is at an allowable placement on the field. If you don't have time to screw on the last part, then play without the last part. Playing hobbled is not a problem (as long as it is not dangerous). Starting in the wrong place is a problem.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Tungrus

...crickets will be chirping till next season.

We remind our drive team to be wary of G2, G10 and G14. Over excited or shocked team members' actions are hard to predict.

I fear you are correct. When I started this thread, FIRST had not come out with their response to the Dallas fiasco. I had hoped that they would make G10 a bit clearer when they announced the results of their investigations. But... ...no joy.

I suppose that Frank's mention of training and team experience will help homogenize the disparate interpretations of this rule but I would feel better if FIRST came out with a statement to the general FIRST community that would get everyone on the same page.

But... ...given that nothing has happened yet, I think it will have to wait until next season... ...or another case on the scale of Dallas Week 1.

Dr. Joe J.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Assuming when you enter the field with the Robot you proceed directly to your placement point, and that the placement point is not blocked by a leaving robot: It starts when you in the general area of the placement point.



Assuming the field reset people are inhibiting your ability to setup the robot, an allowance will be made.



60 seconds is a guide, not a requirement. Hence, a regular watch is sufficient. If you are at your placement point at 3:35:00 pm, then your 60 seconds is up at 3:36:00 pm.



Each robot has its own 60 second period. If your team unnecessarily delays entering the field (standing around yacking and not entering the field when they are first able to) then that delay will count against your 60 seconds.

That said: the 60 second rule gets progressively more strict as the tournament proceeds. Numerous teams were warned at the beginning of qualification matches when they were taking too long. By the time we got to the elimination matches, we didn't have a problem with setup.

If we were having a problem, here is what I would do: I would identify the problem teams, and make it clear to them when the 60 seconds starts (stand there and say your 60 seconds starts now). I would warn them at 50 seconds, and again at 60 seconds. I would then give them 15 seconds to clear the field. At that point, they would have earned the disabled. Whether they are disabled or not would depend upon whether they are delaying the start, or if other things are going on (field connection problems with another bot, another bot still in their 60 seconds, etc.).

BTW: By the time you get to 50 seconds, you should make sure the robot can play as is. That is, it is at an allowable placement on the field. If you don't have time to screw on the last part, then play without the last part. Playing hobbled is not a problem (as long as it is not dangerous). Starting in the wrong place is a problem.

60 seconds is a guideline... so teams will be rigidly held to 60 seconds?

60 seconds wasn't even enough time for most teams last year.

The 60 seconds should really only refer to the exiting of transport config, the usual undetermined amount of time for loading in and alignment should be separate.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Assuming when you enter the field with the Robot you proceed directly to your placement point, and that the placement point is not blocked by a leaving robot: It starts when you in the general area of the placement point.

Assuming the field reset people are inhibiting your ability to setup the robot, an allowance will be made.

60 seconds is a guide, not a requirement. Hence, a regular watch is sufficient. If you are at your placement point at 3:35:00 pm, then your 60 seconds is up at 3:36:00 pm.

Each robot has its own 60 second period. If your team unnecessarily delays entering the field (standing around yacking and not entering the field when they are first able to) then that delay will count against your 60 seconds.

That said: the 60 second rule gets progressively more strict as the tournament proceeds. Numerous teams were warned at the beginning of qualification matches when they were taking too long. By the time we got to the elimination matches, we didn't have a problem with setup.

If we were having a problem, here is what I would do: I would identify the problem teams, and make it clear to them when the 60 seconds starts (stand there and say your 60 seconds starts now). I would warn them at 50 seconds, and again at 60 seconds. I would then give them 15 seconds to clear the field. At that point, they would have earned the disabled. Whether they are disabled or not would depend upon whether they are delaying the start, or if other things are going on (field connection problems with another bot, another bot still in their 60 seconds, etc.).

You seem to have a much more rigid and strict interpretation of the rule than several of the other refs on this thread. Which, I believe, is Dr. Joe's whole point. G10 as written is vague, so refs have to make up their own definitions of what a violation is. It's not a good state of affairs to have that level of penalty hinge on such a vague definition.

[mwmac]

Just as a matter of cya, #1 question of officiating crew at every event's drivers meeting should be "How will the 60 second setup timing be handled during this event?" #2 "How will the enforcement of the 60 second setup timing be changed as the event proceeds whether due to schedule lag or the beginning of playoffs?"

[pathew100]

As mentioned previously, the 60 second guideline is just that. A guideline, NOT a rule. I hope that it is being treated as such at all events.

The rule is this:
G10 DRIVE TEAMS may not cause significant or repeated delays to the start of a MATCH.
VIOLATION: The offending ROBOT will be DISABLED

My take: When are you actually delaying a match? Assuming you have turned on your robot in a timely manner (which you presumably will be reminded of constantly by the field crew) you are only delaying the match if you are still on the field adjusting things when the stack light on the scoring table goes green. At least that's the way I see it.

Of course there are teams that try to game the system by being the last robot to turn on, thus giving them more time to position for auto or whatever. Those teams may fall under the repeated delay situation, but more often that not, we're talking about an extra 20-30 seconds. Hardly enough time to justify making them sit out a match.

[protoserge]

As a key volunteer, we want to provide teams a quality event experience. This doesn't mean that every team will be happy with the outcome of every decision or call on the field, but as a whole, the team will leave an event having had a good time and an overall positive experience. Even if events are running behind schedule, we still want teams to have an enjoyable experience and feel like they were given every reasonable accommodation to compete.

The 60 second guideline is a measure for teams to understand that there needs to be some reasonable approach to their robot design. It is understood that early on in a competition, there will be delays as teams are not necessarily well-practiced or efficient in setting up their robot. If a single team takes 5-6 minutes to set up every match, it could potentially delay a competition an hour.

The refs and FTAs really do not want to disable a robot. It is a last-call measure and it has to be reported.

As far as the comments about "crickets chirping in Manchester", I don't know if I read the tone of the statement correctly as being that of inaction by FIRST HQ. I will say that there is no lack of conversation on this topic and there has been some communication on the subject enforcing the priority of a quality team experience. I am sure we will hear more from Frank in the coming days. I would expect that if there is no explicit rule change, FTAs and refs will have been informed of the policy guidance on this rule to adhere to the priority of a quality team experience.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

You seem to have a much more rigid and strict interpretation of the rule than several of the other refs on this thread.

If there is a team that is known to take a long time, then they will know when the end of the reasonable period is reached. Will they be disabled at that point? It all depends upon what else is going on. If other teams are still setting up, if the FTA's are working on a connection problem, etc, then, as far as I'm concerned, they can keep working. But, if they reach the end of the reasonable period, and we are all standing around waiting for them, we are 5 minutes from the end of the last match (7 minute intervals), etc. then they risk being disabled if they do not promptly wrap it up and leave the field.

With a problem team, I'll be strict in letting them know they have reached the end of the reasonable period. I'll then let the Head Ref know they have been adequately warned, and it is their call whether to impose the disabled penalty. The issue is that it is not a surprise to the team when the disabled penalty is given. If I were the Head Ref, I would be flexible to the point of the team becoming a nuisance. One of my team's scouting questions is whether the team take a long time to get on or get off the field. I would advise my team to avoid selecting a team that has any chance of disabled delay penalty.

So, if you are on an alliance with a bot that takes a long time to set up, then make sure that bot is the first one onto the field. That gives them the maximum amount of time to setup before anyone notices how long it is taking.

Note: Q437 says that G7 repositioning should be a matter of seconds, so don't rely upon another 15 seconds to position your robot.

[Paul Copioli]

rich2202,

Please do not take the following sentences as an attack as I surely do not mean them to be, but ...

All of your responses to me are your interpretation and they are way more rigid than the suggestion of a Blue box in the rules. If you are a ref, then I do not want to be at your events because my team experience will be horrible if you do, in fact, enforce the rules as you have explained.

If 60 seconds is a suggestion, then why do you have a hard limit at 60 seconds? Also, how can you seriously tell people to hurry at 50 seconds if they don't actually know when 50 seconds is? Do you verbally count them out? Is there a timer like for timeouts? Do you give your crew a stopwatch?

I don't mean to be a jerk, but the vagueness that causes VASTLY different enforcement criteria by different refs is frustrating, to say the least.

Your post simply highlighted all the inconsistencies this vagueness can cause.

Paul

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

I don't mean to be a jerk, but the vagueness that causes VASTLY different enforcement criteria by different refs is frustrating, to say the least.

I can't comment on how the rule was applied at other regionals. At the one I was at, there were problem teams early on, and that was expected. I would warn the teams to speed up the process in future matches. Fortunately, they all got their act together (or did not advance to the eliminations), so there wasn't an issue.

If a team persisted being a problem (i kept notes of which teams I told to speed it up), I would be a PIA to them. Standing next to them when the robot arrives on the field, and letting them know when their 60 seconds starts.

By the time a team is disabled, they would have known they have earned it, and it would not have been a surprise. However, at one match they could receive bonus time because other teams were still setting up. It would appear capricious if the next match they don't get as much bonus time because all the other teams have left the field.

No one wants a hard 60 second rule. Variances after 60 seconds is what may lead to what appears to be vastly different enforcement, even within the same ref crew. If someone else is delaying the match, I'm not going to penalize you, just because I can. That should not be taken as a license to take the same amount of time in the future.

If your team is delaying the match, and if you have been warned, then the disabled is appropriate, and not a surprise. The rigidity provides a standard framework for warning a team when they have reached the end of the reasonable period. The flexibilty is how much longer they get after that before the penalty is applied.

At our regional a robot was disabled for other reasons. But, they had been warned at the end of prior matches. After the disable, they modified their strategy to not do it again.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by rich2202

If there is a team that is known to take a long time, then they will know when the end of the reasonable period is reached. Will they be disabled at that point? It all depends upon what else is going on. If other teams are still setting up, if the FTA's are working on a connection problem, etc, then, as far as I'm concerned, they can keep working.

.....

With a problem team, I'll be strict in letting them know they have reached the end of the reasonable period.

.....

Note: Q437 says that G7 repositioning should be a matter of seconds, so don't rely upon another 15 seconds to position your robot.

Bold emphasis is my own.

Hey Rich-
I just wanted to point out why so many people in this thread are concerned about the interpretation and enforcement of the 60 second setup rule.

The bold statements above are all extremely concerning to me as a team mentor. These are all 'judgement calls' and interpretation of individual referees which WILL be different, ref to ref, day to day and event to event.

Things like setup time varying based on whats going on elsewhere on the field? That doesn't seem like rigid enforcement, but then holding teams to 'a matter of seconds' not meaning 15 seems like a rigid enforcement of an unwritten time limit (aka an interpretation of a rule which will vary). What constitutes a problem team? A one time offender? Two times? Every single time? Can a team be moved off the 'problem' team list if they make adjustments?

It's simply too vague right now and is leaving a wide array of interpretations that have already reared their head in a bad way at an event resulting in corrective action from HQ.

-Brando