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Unread 07-03-2015, 23:18
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

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Originally Posted by cmrnpizzo14 View Post

1114's ramp is large enough that they can preload 4 totes on the ramp. This benefits them since their robot can stack faster than a human player can feed through the chute door. I have heard (not done the math myself) that they actually can do stacks from the feeder station faster than 148 this way.
148 would still be faster, as they are already stacked, but not by much.
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Unread 07-03-2015, 23:43
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Just my thoughts on this regional. I tried to follow as much as I can but the webcast wasn't always up. 1114 was truly beast with over double the average of second seed/rank. Amazing human player and landfill capabilities paired with 1114's relentless determination to win makes it no surprise they did, I knew after seeing 1 of there matches. 3360 had a nice overall robot with a great drive and intake. From what i grasp the finals had a controversy of 1114 instructing 1547 to not move (which makes sense as they would have gotten in the way) and also heard the 1114 pulled some quick hp totes after droping a landfill totes stack. Although, my favorite human player is 1241's who had amazing determination, for someone so thin its amazing how much energy he had to move totes in auto and throughout the match in order to keep up with 1241's sick double stacker (don't know what happened to them on Friday). This is all I have because I was following central while at work, after all the matches are up I will be able see more in depth at the teams and how they play. For anyone who was there do they have anything else they want to add to this regional summary.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 03:48
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

We had trouble in QF, when our alliance captain had half of their drive train not working that caused our auto to fail... 771 didnt make it on time after their roborio fried so we played our first match alone with a broken arm after the impact during autonomous... We only needed 3 more points to get to semis... Still had a lot of fun with the Alpha Dogs and SWAT!
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Unread 08-03-2015, 03:51
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Does anyone know where I can find the video they presented during ceremonies?
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Unread 08-03-2015, 07:52
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Is this the first time that 1114 and 610 have been allies in the elimination rounds? I can't remember seeing that pairing before. If so, I'm sure both teams were happy to finally have that opportunity. Congrats to both of them and Where's Waldo as well.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 08:42
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

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Originally Posted by Nemo View Post
Is this the first time that 1114 and 610 have been allies in the elimination rounds? I can't remember seeing that pairing before. If so, I'm sure both teams were happy to finally have that opportunity. Congrats to both of them and Where's Waldo as well.
I think it is. This is first time according to the TBA data.

It also shows the 1114 has won against 610 many times.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 09:54
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NatashaWhyte View Post
For those who were asking, it was a strategic decision agreed to by all three teams for 1547 to act as a tether for both 610 and 1114's ramps.
...
We did pass transport configuration with the robot, and in order to swiftly go through matches, we loaded the ramps on and off our robot before we got on to the field as requested by the Head Ref.
Very clever strategy.

A few questions:
- How much did 610 and 1114's ramps weigh?
- Were they constructed from raw materials at the event, or were they part of those teams 30 pound weight allowance?
- If they were not constructed at the event, and they were not part of your own own 30 pound weight allowance, how did you get around R17?
- Was it necessary to remove weight from your robot prior to a second inspection that included the ramps?
- At the second inspection, were you required to submit an amended robot BOM including the ramps?

Please do not misinterpret these questions as implying any sort of misconduct. In fact, I'm assuming that everything was completely legal, and want to learn how you accomplished your reconfiguration within the rules. For the first time, we are possibly planning to do some major reconfiguration of our robot between competitions. We very much want to understand the legalities of how top teams use the weight limit, weight witholding, and reconfiguration rules to make reconfigurations such as this.

Depending on the answers to these questions, I'm drawing some conclusions which might be in error.

1) If the ramps were prebuilt, and not part of 1547's 30 pound weight allowance, this implies that R17 does not restrict robot A to being constructed from fabricated parts from only team A's weight allowance. In fact, team A could recruit teams B, C, D, E and F to bring 20 pounds each, and team A could legally construct an entire new robot using their own and their friends weight allowances. A practical impossibility, but interesting to consider.

2) We have been entirely too constrained by Rule T9, "At the time of Inspection, the robot must be presented with ALL mechanisms (including all components of each mechanism), configurations, and decorations that will be used on the robot DURING THE COMPETITION EVENT." (emphasis mine) We took this to mean that if we changed configurations during the event, all the components needed to be weighed as part of the robot during the initial inspection. In fact, it appears that a team may remove and add components at will, as long as they are reinspected between each reconfiguration. We only need to include the components of these multiple configurations in the weight total if we plan on reconfiguring WITHOUT re-inspection. This opens up all sorts of possibilities. We had thought that if we wanted to use one sort of arm for picking up cans from the floor (config A) in some matches, and swap out a different mechanism for pulling cans from the step (config B) in others, that both mechanisms needed to be presented at initial inspection, and included in the 120 pound weight limit. Rather, it appears that we can have one 119 pound configuration inspected initially. Then, later, we can remove one 15 pound mechanism A, replace it by another 15 pound mechanism B, reinspect, and legally play matches.

This is the reason why we encourage our students to study webcasts of earlier competitions than ours. It's amazing to see how top alliance's out-of-the-box strategic thinking makes them great. We need to encourage our team to think beyond just our own robot and expand our thinking to include ways to leverage our alliance partners.
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Last edited by ToddF : 08-03-2015 at 09:58.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 10:12
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddF View Post
- How much did 610 and 1114's ramps weigh?
- Were they constructed from raw materials at the event, or were they part of those teams 30 pound weight allowance?
- If they were not constructed at the event, and they were not part of your own own 30 pound weight allowance, how did you get around R17?
- Was it necessary to remove weight from your robot prior to a second inspection that included the ramps?
- At the second inspection, were you required to submit an amended robot BOM including the ramps?
1. Not sure about the weight of 610's ramp, but 1114's ramp weighed about 7.5 pounds
2. 610's ramp was built at the event. 1114's ramp was partially built in advance and the prebuilt parts were included in our own withholding allowance.
3. The inspectors were both aware and completely fine with us using parts built by our team for another team. I don't believe the intent of R17 is to keep teams from using parts given to them by other teams, as the practice has been going on for many years. (Teams adding pre-built blockers to partners in 2013 being the most common example. This season it's been teams adding "canburglars" to robots.) If this had been disallowed, we just would have built a new ramp during the event. It's not a complicated mechanism at all and we had the raw materials to do it.
4. 1547 weighed about 90 pounds prior to the addition of the ramps. Weight did not have to be removed. Although some ballast from moved from 1547's main robot to the ramp to help with stability. I believe they weighed in at around 102 during the final expectation.
5. I don't believe so.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 10:53
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

We had a great time playing at Ryerson University (a perfect venue for FRC competition). Right in the middle of the city to attract casual robotics friends and families, modern AV and friendly support from the university staff.

Re our alliance with 1114, yes, it's a first. We look forward to more!

Our pit crew improvised on Saturday morning to turn a tote into a ramp so that we can be more efficient loading from HP stations. Yes, we sacrificed one of our practice totes and cut it in half; but hey, how often do you get to use a game piece as part of a robot for playoffs?



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Last edited by billylo : 08-03-2015 at 15:07. Reason: fixed link
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Unread 08-03-2015, 11:29
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 View Post
I just saw 2994 carry a robot on the field that was definitely not in transport config, and it looked it could never get into transport config.


How is that legal?

Edit: I see they were disabled. NM
It actually appeared that 2994 was disabled for violating G7.C, "When placed on the field, each robot must be completely outside the auto zone and landfill zone."

2994 had manipulators on either side of their robot that extended into the auto and landfill zone simultaneously. Since the fix was not a "quick remedy", they were disabled from the match.

As far as the transport configuration concern, I do not know the definitive answer but it appeared as though teams were allowed to assemble their robots field-side prior to their match. I personally only spectated on Saturday so I didn't attend the drivers meeting where I am sure this was discussed.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 12:22
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddF View Post
1) If the ramps were prebuilt, and not part of 1547's 30 pound weight allowance, this implies that R17 does not restrict robot A to being constructed from fabricated parts from only team A's weight allowance. In fact, team A could recruit teams B, C, D, E and F to bring 20 pounds each, and team A could legally construct an entire new robot using their own and their friends weight allowances. A practical impossibility, but interesting to consider.
I don't recall seeing a Q&A question relating to this type of strategy but we would be very interested in the answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddF View Post
Please do not misinterpret these questions as implying any sort of misconduct. In fact, I'm assuming that everything was completely legal, and want to learn how you accomplished your reconfiguration within the rules. For the first time, we are possibly planning to do some major reconfiguration of our robot between competitions. We very much want to understand the legalities of how top teams use the weight limit, weight witholding, and reconfiguration rules to make reconfigurations such as this.
It would be interesting to see if 3847 makes a post about what they did in Arkansas.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 12:44
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddF View Post
2) We have been entirely too constrained by Rule T9, "At the time of Inspection, the robot must be presented with ALL mechanisms (including all components of each mechanism), configurations, and decorations that will be used on the robot DURING THE COMPETITION EVENT." (emphasis mine) We took this to mean that if we changed configurations during the event, all the components needed to be weighed as part of the robot during the initial inspection. In fact, it appears that a team may remove and add components at will, as long as they are reinspected between each reconfiguration. We only need to include the components of these multiple configurations in the weight total if we plan on reconfiguring WITHOUT re-inspection. This opens up all sorts of possibilities. We had thought that if we wanted to use one sort of arm for picking up cans from the floor (config A) in some matches, and swap out a different mechanism for pulling cans from the step (config B) in others, that both mechanisms needed to be presented at initial inspection, and included in the 120 pound weight limit. Rather, it appears that we can have one 119 pound configuration inspected initially. Then, later, we can remove one 15 pound mechanism A, replace it by another 15 pound mechanism B, reinspect, and legally play matches.
The bold part is how it's been interpreted since I've been playing--to a point.

Essentially, you show up, you inspect, you play, and if you add device X, you reinspect--and if you forget that last reinspect, the penalties are quite severe.

However, I suspect that the part after the bold is going to be problematic. In general (and in the past, though that part wouldn't apply this year for obvious reasons), modular systems have been told to inspect with all modules together. Reference R4--under R4, you'd probably run into trouble if you were to inspect with mechanism A, then with mechanism B, then back to A again... But that's not quite the same this year, see below.

So what you end up with is that T9 would, in general, allow additions provided that reinspection is conducted, and R4 tells you that everything needs to be inspected, including any "modular" configurations.

The GDC has ruled in favor of T9 in Q440--you can make any changes you like provided you get reinspected, but there are no guarantees you'll make the match you changed for if you go that route.

And now back to your regularly-scheduled GTRC thread...
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Last edited by EricH : 08-03-2015 at 12:50. Reason: Checked Q&A Again
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Unread 08-03-2015, 14:44
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddF View Post
Very clever strategy.
A few questions:
- How much did 610 and 1114's ramps weigh?
- Were they constructed from raw materials at the event, or were they part of those teams 30 pound weight allowance?
- If they were not constructed at the event, and they were not part of your own own 30 pound weight allowance, how did you get around R17?
- Was it necessary to remove weight from your robot prior to a second inspection that included the ramps?
- At the second inspection, were you required to submit an amended robot BOM including the ramps?
Todd,

1) Our "ramp" weighed about 10 pounds
2) It was constructed from a tote we brought for practice, some pieces of 2x4 wood, fasteners, and gaffer's tape
3) The weight was accounted for by 1547, to whom the ramp was tethered. They were already significantly underweight, and I do not believe anything needed to be removed from their robot
4) That's a good question. I wasn't involved with 1547's re-inspection process so I can't give you any insight here. Sorry! From personal experience, when we've brought our own changes to these same inspectors prior to eliminations, a revised BoM was never necessary. The inspectors usually did ask us what the modifications were, where the parts came from, do a visual verification, etc, but no updated BoM was required.

Quote:
Is this the first time that 1114 and 610 have been allies in the elimination rounds? I can't remember seeing that pairing before. If so, I'm sure both teams were happy to finally have that opportunity. Congrats to both of them and Where's Waldo as well.

I think it is. This is first time according to the TBA data.

It also shows the 1114 has won against 610 many times.
Yes, this is the first time in FRC history that the two teams have been on the same side of the glass in an elimination match. That's 13 years of shared existence.

There has been a long-standing rivalry between 188/610/1310 and 1114/2056. We've met in the finals of regionals more times than I can remember. It is a healthy rivalry, which is a bit of an anomaly in FRC because I think many believe rivalries run counter to Gracious Professionalism. I couldn't disagree more, as it's certainly possible to have a healthy rivalry and still demonstrate the highest levels of Gracious Professionalism.

In fact, I think this is one of the best examples in all of FRC.

It was a pleasure working with 1114 and helping them bring home another regional win. I don't think we were a clear-cut "next-best-robot" and the choice amongst us vs 188, 1310, 3360, 4001, 4946, 2609, etc was probably a difficult one. These were all robots that could put up serious stacks, unlike us. In a sense, maybe 610 would've been the worst robot to play against in the finals if allied with any of the above remaining robots... I know we were looking at the numbers between 3 stacks of 6 vs 5 stacks of 4 very carefully. Thoughts of defending the RCs from the step from being taken by the opponents definitely crossed my mind. If you don't pick us, would you want to play against us?

Needless to say, our team actually was quite surprised when we were picked by 1114, and I say that in the most absolute positive way.

It was a great opportunity to finally be on the same side as a long-time rival, and to be able to win a regional together.

Thanks 1114 and 1547 for this amazing weekend!
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Unread 08-03-2015, 15:03
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

This was a great regional. A strong and friendly group of volunteers kept things running very smoothly. We would have preferred more than 10 qualifying matches with only 42 teams, but this minor gripe didn't take anything away from a fabulous event. Having the event right in downtown Toronto in one of Canada's most historic buildings added some real prestige to the entire show.

We had a great time playing 610 for the first time ever. There's been many times where we've been close to ending up on the same alliance as them, and it was nice to see it finally happen. They were incredibly well built, consistent, and filled a specific need for our alliance. Their "Canburgling" allowed us to focus on our own stacking.

It was also a blast playing with our longtime friends and sister team, Where's Waldo. They displayed a lot gracious professionalism and were willing to fill any role that our alliance needed to help bring home a blue banner. I expect them to be a huge asset to teams at the Chesapeake Regional especially with their new membership on #TeamTether.
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Unread 09-03-2015, 18:07
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Re: 2015 Greater Toronto Central Regional (GTRC)

Just curious if there is any archived video for the event. I was reffing, but want to go over strategy with my team, and its a lot easier to show certain situations rather than just explaining.
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