Go to Post High heels on a Segway takes quite a bit of adjustment - as I learned the hard way. - Jessica Boucher [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 19 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #121   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 12:59
AllenGregoryIV's Avatar
AllenGregoryIV AllenGregoryIV is offline
Engineering Coach
AKA: Allen "JAG" Gregory
FRC #3847 (Spectrum)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,572
AllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond reputeAllenGregoryIV has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AllenGregoryIV
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Smith View Post
Do the top tier teams really play with a "win at all costs" mentality? I don't see it that way...
That is what I think a lot of teams are missing. At least in Texas I know that if any team walked up to 118, 148, 624, 1477, etc and asked for help building a can burgler on Thursday morning their pit would have 3-4 people in it with in minutes working towards that goal. Once a team is on your alliance you take a little more ownership of them and work with them to make themselves better but most of the time all a team has to do is ask and they will get plenty of cheesecake.
__________________

Team 647 | Cyber Wolf Corps | Alumni | 2003-2006 | Shoemaker HS
Team 2587 | DiscoBots | Mentor | 2008-2011 | Rice University / Houston Food Bank
Team 3847 | Spectrum | Coach | 2012-20... | St Agnes Academy
LRI | Alamo Regional | 2014-20...
"Competition has been shown to be useful up to a certain point and no further, but cooperation, which is the thing we must strive for today, begins where competition leaves off." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #122   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:01
efoote868 efoote868 is offline
foote stepped in
AKA: E. Foote
FRC #0868
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 1,427
efoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Both of those things are huge gambles, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. I do not think that's the most likely scenario though.
I'd like to expand the example to future years too, since it seems we're debating FRC game policy.


Continuing the hypothetical, a top seeding team is able to build two separate robots that perfectly compliment each other for a particular game. They're able to engineer their 2nd robot so that it weighs under the withholding allowance, and that assembly with COTS components is very quick (such as, install robot controller here, speed controllers here, and these motors here, here and here and with this software your new robot is ready to go).

After qualification, they gift their 2nd robot to their 3rd alliance member, so that the 3rd alliance member competes in eliminations with a completely different robot than they did in qualifications. Does this follow the spirit of FRC?
__________________

Be Healthy. Never Stop Learning. Say It Like It Is. Own It. Like our values? Flexware Innovation is hiring!. We're looking for Senior Automation, Software, and System Engineers. Check us out!
Reply With Quote
  #123   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:03
AdamHeard's Avatar
AdamHeard AdamHeard is offline
Lead Mentor
FRC #0973 (Greybots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Atascadero
Posts: 5,529
AdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AdamHeard
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by efoote868 View Post
After qualification, they gift their 2nd robot to their 3rd alliance member, so that the 3rd alliance member competes in eliminations with a completely different robot than they did in qualifications. Does this follow the spirit of FRC?
No it doesn't. It seems like just about everyone agrees that is too far.

The same rule that outlaws the above shouldn't outlaw help.
Reply With Quote
  #124   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:04
IronicDeadBird's Avatar
IronicDeadBird IronicDeadBird is offline
Theory Crafting Fo days...
AKA: Charles Ives "M" Waldo IV
FRC #1339 (Angelbots)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 958
IronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond reputeIronicDeadBird has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

I guess what I should emphasize is that I would like to see a growth in resources available to all levels of teams starting at Day 1. Not necessarily that teams are doing it for the wrong reasons.
The care and compassion I see in the pits I just would like to hear about more throughout the entire year as this would be a reflection of good community health. Of course saying all this if Cheesecake theater becomes a thing I will be thoroughly upset...
__________________
HERO 俺を讃える声や 喝采なんて 欲しくはないさ
So I got my jacket back, but it turns out the "W" in WPI doesn't stand for that steak sauce I can't pronounce.
Play is for kids this is serious...
Reply With Quote
  #125   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:05
AdamHeard's Avatar
AdamHeard AdamHeard is offline
Lead Mentor
FRC #0973 (Greybots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Atascadero
Posts: 5,529
AdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AdamHeard
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird View Post
I guess what I should emphasize is that I would like to see a growth in resources available to all levels of teams starting at Day 1. Not necessarily that teams are doing it for the wrong reasons.
The care and compassion I see in the pits I just would like to hear about more throughout the entire year as this would be a reflection of good community health. Of course saying all this if Cheesecake theater becomes a thing I will be thoroughly upset...
The teams that are helping others the most in pits, are also likely helping others the most long term.

Everyone needs to get off their high horse, you can't demand others to help.

It's also comical to read in this thread posts from some claiming others should help more, help all teams, etc... The people making these posts have likely helped less teams in total, than some of the teams they are referring to have helped in a single season.
Reply With Quote
  #126   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:07
dodar's Avatar
dodar dodar is offline
Registered User
FRC #1592 (Bionic Tigers)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Cocoa, Florida
Posts: 2,929
dodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond reputedodar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by efoote868 View Post
I'd like to expand the example to future years too, since it seems we're debating FRC game policy.


Continuing the hypothetical, a top seeding team is able to build two separate robots that perfectly compliment each other for a particular game. They're able to engineer their 2nd robot so that it weighs under the withholding allowance, and that assembly with COTS components is very quick (such as, install robot controller here, speed controllers here, and these motors here, here and here and with this software your new robot is ready to go).

After qualification, they gift their 2nd robot to their 3rd alliance member, so that the 3rd alliance member competes in eliminations with a completely different robot than they did in qualifications. Does this follow the spirit of FRC?
I am pretty sure everyone would say no to that instance. But I think everyone is in agreement that completely altering a robot in elims to fit a strategy is bad; but in the same breathe, adding to a robot to increase its worth and capabilities in an elimination, or maybe even qualification, alliance is something FIRST has always been ok with, as long as the team getting the upgrades believe in them.
__________________
1592(Student and Mentor) 2007-Present

Blue Banners: 2008 Colorado, 2012 Orlando, 2012 South Florida, 2014 Orlando, 2015 Buckeye

Mechanical Engineering - University of Central Florida(Class of 2016)
Reply With Quote
  #127   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:11
efoote868 efoote868 is offline
foote stepped in
AKA: E. Foote
FRC #0868
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 1,427
efoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
No it doesn't. It seems like just about everyone agrees that is too far.

The same rule that outlaws the above shouldn't outlaw help.
I would argue that the 2nd example is very close to the 1st example.

What would make the 1st example OK in my mind is if the mentor team helps them build the robot throughout the entire competition ... not just at the end and after they've been picked. That is to say, the robot that gets picked before elimination is the same robot that is competing during elimination.
__________________

Be Healthy. Never Stop Learning. Say It Like It Is. Own It. Like our values? Flexware Innovation is hiring!. We're looking for Senior Automation, Software, and System Engineers. Check us out!
Reply With Quote
  #128   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:12
connor.worley's Avatar
connor.worley connor.worley is offline
Registered User
FRC #0973 (Greybots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Berkeley/San Diego
Posts: 601
connor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Applying this ruling to software help is a nightmare...
__________________
Team 973 (2016-???)
Team 5499 (2015-2016)
Team 254 (2014-2015)

Team 1538 (2011-2014)
2014 Driver (25W 17L 1T)
日本語でOK
Reply With Quote
  #129   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:12
JesseK's Avatar
JesseK JesseK is offline
Expert Flybot Crasher
FRC #1885 (ILITE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 3,735
JesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Does the concept of 'Cheesecake' extend to other competition programs as well? I haven't been part of VA FTC in a while, but I wonder about other FTC and VRC competitions.

Personally I think 'cheesecake' is a bit too far - but I don't think it should be banned at the expense of loaning another team pre-assembled items, like a cylinder with fittings, or stock that has a few holes in it, etc. I'm all for showing teams how to fish rather than just giving them the fish. If we give the teams the necessary materials and help them built it themselves from scratch, then it's pretty much the same thing anyways while simultaneously being more like a mentorship rather than a competitive giveaway.

Last edited by JesseK : 17-03-2015 at 13:17. Reason: sp.
Reply With Quote
  #130   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:13
FrankJ's Avatar
FrankJ FrankJ is offline
Robot Mentor
FRC #2974 (WALT)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Marietta GA
Posts: 1,954
FrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
Given the answer to Q461, would 1396's 2004 experience be legal now?
By the strict letter of the Q&A. Maybe not if prefabbed parts where used. But remember First is more than a robot competition. Exceptions are made for corner cases. That would be one of them.
__________________
If you don't know what you should hook up then you should read a data sheet
Reply With Quote
  #131   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:14
kjohnson's Avatar
kjohnson kjohnson is offline
Insert Clever Title Here
AKA: Kyle J.
FRC #1610 (BOT)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 575
kjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond reputekjohnson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
I'm going to put this whole discussion into a more palatable context: Cheesecake.
...
Cheesecake? Yes, Cheesecake.

-Mike
Can I spotlight this entire post? Please?
Reply With Quote
  #132   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:14
AdamHeard's Avatar
AdamHeard AdamHeard is offline
Lead Mentor
FRC #0973 (Greybots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Atascadero
Posts: 5,529
AdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AdamHeard
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by efoote868 View Post
I would argue that the 2nd example is very close to the 1st example.

What would make the 1st example OK in my mind is if the mentor team helps them build the robot throughout the entire competition ... not just at the end and after they've been picked. That is to say, the robot that gets picked before elimination is the same robot that is competing during elimination.
No, that's outrageous.

I don't want to brag, but there is no way to make the point below without.

A few people from my team (kids, mentors, whatever) in 10 minutes can solve more problems for many teams than they can solve all weekend. This isn't because we're smarter, it's just a different culture. We live this stuff and spend a lot of time on it. The teams we pick often are just an afterschool program 10 hours a week. They just aren't on the same level as us.

But if you let us work with them for a two hour elims window... Fix their little problems, add features, help them see the world differently... It will change their team.

Why should that be illegal? Why shouldn't we be allowed to inspire and mentor the teams we work with on a more personal level than all 65 at the event? It's simply not possible to give all 65 teams that same experience, but it CERTAINLY means a lot to that one team.

Separately, we help all darn weekend with teams for all sorts of issues. We'd have done the same for the team before elims if they asked for it, but many don't.

This isn't always the case obviously, we have picked teams plenty of times in the past that knew their stuff. Even with them though we do whatever we can to raise their game while we're together.
Reply With Quote
  #133   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:15
Andrew Y.'s Avatar
Andrew Y. Andrew Y. is offline
FunYun
AKA: Andrew Yun
FRC #2415
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 304
Andrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud ofAndrew Y. has much to be proud of
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Sometimes...you cheesecake yourself. We sure had to at Alamo.....
Reply With Quote
  #134   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:16
Pauline Tasci's Avatar
Pauline Tasci Pauline Tasci is online now
Rockets and Robots
FRC #3476 (Code Orange)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 308
Pauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond reputePauline Tasci has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK View Post
Does the concept of 'Cheesecake' extend to other competition programs as well? I haven't been part of VA FTC in a while, but I wonder about other FTC and VRC competitions.
Personally I volunteer at countless FTC events every year and work with 2 teams closely.
Cheescaking happens at the FTC level, but not as often and usually at higher level events, kind of like division champs for FTC.
__________________
Team 3476 Code Orange- 2014-? ~ Head Mechanical and Design Mentor
FIRST Orange County 2015-? ~Regional Planning Committee Member
Beach Blitz 2016-? ~ Event Chair/Director
FIRST Volunteer-2010-?
Team 589 Falkon Robotics- 2010-2013 ~Captain, Driver, Outreach, Mech Lead
CD Moderator~ Always feel free to PM me.
Facebook
Reply With Quote
  #135   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-03-2015, 13:22
Brandon Holley's Avatar
Brandon Holley Brandon Holley is offline
Chase perfection. Catch excellence.
AKA: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be
FRC #0125 (NU-TRONs, Team #11 Alumni (GO MORT))
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,593
Brandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond reputeBrandon Holley has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Brandon Holley
Re: Dangerous precedent set by Q&A 461: Loaning Parts/Assemblies to other teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK View Post
Does the concept of 'Cheesecake' extend to other competition programs as well? I haven't been part of VA FTC in a while, but I wonder about other FTC and VRC competitions.

Personally I think 'cheesecake' is a bit too far - but I don't think it should be banned at the expense of loaning another team pre-assembled items, like a cylinder with fittings, or stock that has a few holes in it, etc. I'm all for showing teams how to fish rather than just giving them the fish. If we give the teams the necessary materials and help them built it themselves from scratch, then it's pretty much the same thing anyways while simultaneously being more like a mentorship rather than a competitive giveaway.
Bold emphasis mine.

What I've been continuing to try and emphasize is that handing someone an arm with a hook at the end of it is NOT the inspirational, hard part about a cheesecake. That hook is good for the 2015 game and that game only. The part that will teach them to fish is how you integrate, how you implement, even on the fly. There is not a single team in FRC history who has taken their robot out of a bag/crate, put it on the field and stampeded the competition.

You need to Cheesecake yourself constantly. Showing someone else how to cheesecake IS how you teach them to fish, just in a condensed format where the time to iterate as expired.

#AlwaysBeCheesecaking
__________________
MORT (Team 11) '01-'05 :
-2005 New Jersey Regional Chairman's Award Winners
-2013 MORT Hall of Fame Inductee

NUTRONs (Team 125) '05-???
2007 Boston Regional Winners
2008 & 2009 Boston Regional Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award
2010 Boston Regional Creativity Award
2011 Bayou Regional Finalists, Innovation in Control Award, Boston Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award
2012 New York City Regional Winners, Boston Regional Finalists, IRI Mentor of the Year
2013 Orlando Regional Finalists, Industrial Design Award, Boston Regional Winners, Pine Tree Regional Finalists
2014 Rhode Island District Winners, Excellence in Engineering Award, Northeastern University District Winners, Industrial Design Award, Pine Tree District Chairman's Award, Pine Tree District Winners
2015 South Florida Regional Chairman's Award, NU District Winners, NEDCMP Industrial Design Award, Hopper Division Finalists, Hopper/Newton Gracious Professionalism Award
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:50.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi