Should there be a new division in FIRST?

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

A few years ago they did a College pilot. I was working so I didn't get to see it in action but it had flying robots involved (before drones were available). I think a handful of colleges tried it out. It didn't seem to expand more from there.

I spent some time over there watching. The combination challenge of an aerial and ground bot working together was rather interesting. Most of the teams couldn't do much of anything.... This was in the pits at Worlds in 2011.

It was originally it's own program called C.A.R.D. (Collegiate Aerial Robotics Division), FIRST was thinking about annexing it, but it was poorly run and poorly supported. Since it didn't meet their quality and branding standards, they jumped ship fast.*

*Source: I started a team that flopped

[JamesCH95]

Among the many great Collegiate-level engineering competitions there are:

http://students.sae.org/cds/
http://www.aiche.org/community/students/chem-e-car
http://www.asce.org/concrete_canoe/
https://www.aisc.org/content.aspx?id=780

And there are many more.

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

One of the things that I don't like about college-level engineering competitions is that many of them have the same task each year.

Take Formula SAE Racing-
The challenge every year is to build a fast vehicle that wins races.

It doesn't have the variety of games that FIRST offers. It doesn't have the in-depth game strategy or defense that FIRST offers. (Or at least it doesn't seem to. I've never been a big fan of sports or competitions that don't allow for weaker athletes/competitors to win by playing intelligently- but that's a different discussion.)

Many of these competitions are about making incremental improvements on previous designs- many of which are important engineering challenges, and I'm not trying to knock those who do these competitions whatsoever- I just don't find much enjoyment in them personally.

I would love a collegiate version of FIRST personally. I would love a collegiate robotics competition with an open ended game to study and design new solutions for- not a robotics skills challenge.

However, I also think the lack of a collegiate FIRST competition can be good for FRC teams- college student mentors can be a huge help.

I think that you, like many FIRSTers, are unaware of the many subtleties in events like FSAE. I had one mentor/teacher tell me that he "didn't respect FSAE" which is a horrific attitude (not saying that you have it, just that I've seen a trend of FIRSTers not fully understanding such competitions). The fact of the matter is that it's a very difficult competition (only a small number of cars finish every dynamic event) with a LOT of room for creativity. I know many of the cars look the same, but the variety in engines, transmissions, drive layout, induction choice, tire selection, etc makes all of the cars very different. There is (or, can be) a lot of strategy behind each design decision because of how the point structure is laid out.

Plus you get to drive a race car. If you thought being behind the glass in FRC is a rush...

[jvriezen]

We've had several FRC alumni participate at Univ. Of MN in the American Solar Challenge (http://americansolarchallenge.org/ and https://www.facebook.com/umnsvp?fref=nf)

You get to build a street legal experimental solar powered car and then figure out how to drive it a very long distance (1200-1800 miles) while trading off speed, power consumption and watching weather and maximizing sun exposure.

I think they've also competed in non-US competitions as well.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I think that you, like many FIRSTers, are unaware of the many subtleties in events like FSAE. I had one mentor/teacher tell me that he "didn't respect FSAE" which is a horrific attitude (not saying that you have it, just that I've seen a trend of FIRSTers not fully understanding such competitions). The fact of the matter is that it's a very difficult competition (only a small number of cars finish every dynamic event) with a LOT of room for creativity. I know many of the cars look the same, but the variety in engines, transmissions, drive layout, induction choice, tire selection, etc makes all of the cars very different. There is (or, can be) a lot of strategy behind each design decision because of how the point structure is laid out.

Plus you get to drive a race car. If you thought being behind the glass in FRC is a rush...

But every year it's a race, it's a skills challenge. Which machine is fastest. There's no way to play defense, there's no way to outplay a better opponent.
I have no doubt that Formula SAE is a difficult and dynamic challenge, and I have the utmost respect for the competition.

But I like to participate in games. I've never been a fan of competitive running or bowling or golf- because there's no strategy or dynamic way to play the game differently- they're just skills challenges. FSAE is an engineering challenge, not a game.
(That's also why I'm not a huge fan of Recycle Rush, but again, that's a different discussion.)

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

Why stop at all?

We could just keep this robotics thing escalating until we end up like the Tralfamadorians.

Ahh another Vonnegut supporter

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

But every year it's a race, it's a skills challenge. Which machine is fastest. There's no way to play defense, there's no way to outplay a better opponent.
I have no doubt that Formula SAE is a difficult and dynamic challenge, and I have the utmost respect for the competition.

But I like to participate in games. I've never been a fan of competitive running or bowling or golf- because there's no strategy or dynamic way to play the game differently- they're just skills challenges. FSAE is an engineering challenge, not a game.
(That's also why I'm not a huge fan of Recycle Rush, but again, that's a different discussion.)

I tend to agree with this. The other thing to consider is that if the goal of FIRST is to make an impact in the culture, what better way to do it than to work towards making the program a college sport? Just think about tuning into your local TV station on a Saturday and getting full coverage of a College-Variation FIRST event?

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

Besides, there are MANY nonFIRST things to get involved with in college to satisfy your robotics needs, like real-life research. No reason to make up more arbitrary work.

I hate to pull out the ol "you'll understand when you're older," but I really didn't understand the truth in this statement until I went to college. It's a big, big world out there, and FRC is really only a tiny piece of it. At first, I wondered how I could be intellectually stimulated without FRC, now, I wonder how I ever put up with the insane hours, stupid inter team conflicts, and all the hard work that never seemed to pay off. I'm glad that I had the opertunity to do FRC, but I'm also glad that I'm taking a break now. There are so many awesome things to do at school that FRC no longer feels like the best use of my short time in college.

Plus, there is a way to do FRC in college. It's called mentoring. And, if you find the right team, it can be exactly the right level of fun, commitment, and involvement to suit your needs.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

But every year it's a race, it's a skills challenge. Which machine is fastest. There's no way to play defense, there's no way to outplay a better opponent.
I have no doubt that Formula SAE is a difficult and dynamic challenge, and I have the utmost respect for the competition.

But I like to participate in games. I've never been a fan of competitive running or bowling or golf- because there's no strategy or dynamic way to play the game differently- they're just skills challenges. FSAE is an engineering challenge, not a game.
(That's also why I'm not a huge fan of Recycle Rush, but again, that's a different discussion.)

I see your point, fair enough.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa

I spent some time over there watching. The combination challenge of an aerial and ground bot working together was rather interesting. Most of the teams couldn't do much of anything.... This was in the pits at Worlds in 2011.

It was originally it's own program called C.A.R.D. (Collegiate Aerial Robotics Division), FIRST was thinking about annexing it, but it was poorly run and poorly supported. Since it didn't meet their quality and branding standards, they jumped ship fast.*

*Source: I started a team that flopped

They should consider letting the kids have a shot at the game!

[Katie_UPS]

If you are in college and don't have enough to do, then I am very interested in how you are doing college. As already mentioned, there are a ton of college competitions that already exist, and unless your collegiate team is winning that competition year after year, then you have all the opportunities to iterate that you think you are missing out on. If you want a new challenge every year, do a different club each year. There are so many competitions and challenges that already exist, it would be an unwise use of time and money to make another one, none the less one that doesn't give experience that would be relevant for students' future careers.

Whenever someone says "they should have FIRST in college," I hear "I don't want to try something new."

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

But every year it's a race, it's a skills challenge. Which machine is fastest. There's no way to play defense, there's no way to outplay a better opponent.
I have no doubt that Formula SAE is a difficult and dynamic challenge, and I have the utmost respect for the competition.

But I like to participate in games. [...] FSAE is an engineering challenge, not a game.

All right. Fair enough.

I hate to break it to you, but it's ALL a game. I'll have to see if my dad will post here, but he's stated in the past that his senior design team (Baja SAE) didn't realize there was a game until later.

And here's why. You are trying to win, no? You are taking a set of rules, and following them, and trying to do better than your opponents. Sometimes, that involves head-to-head competition. But the vast majority of the time, the head-to-head competition is conducted in one-at-a-time or one-man-in-the-arena formats, even in the real world. (I can imagine the competition for a fighter-aircraft contract now if it was full head-to-head... Yeah, not gonna happen.)

So here's the trick: You have to look at the rules, and engineer up your best way of winning the game. If you've seen Spare Parts, or won an RCA/EI/RAS, you might notice that you don't necessarily have to win the engineering challenge to win the game.

[Downhillsurfer]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

We've had several FRC alumni participate at Univ. Of MN in the American Solar Challenge (http://americansolarchallenge.org/ and https://www.facebook.com/umnsvp?fref=nf)

You get to build a street legal experimental solar powered car and then figure out how to drive it a very long distance (1200-1800 miles) while trading off speed, power consumption and watching weather and maximizing sun exposure.

I think they've also competed in non-US competitions as well.

Yeah, I used to compete in FRC and VEX and now I am on the University of Michigan Solar Car Team. The World Solar Challenge is across Australia, pretty much from coast to coast, North to South. Sure there a large amount of things I miss from robotics but I am still having a great time and have learned things I would have never learned through robotics.

[dtengineering]

Almost every FRC student who graduated from our team and enrolled at a local university expressed a desire to return and mentor the team the following year.

Not one of them did. And, frankly, that is a good thing.

They really wanted to, and they really meant to... but their lives changed. Their lives changed because university is different from high school. They had less free time... in addition to more demanding courses, they had to commute to class. The commuting alone sucked up an hour a day from their free time, and the homework and studying likely a few more.

They had new friends, and those friends led them to new hobbies and activities. Many had jobs to help cover the cost of tuition, or volunteered with organizations on campus. They were doing new things and learning new things... exactly what you are supposed to do at university.

The idea of hanging out in the shop until nine or ten at night every night for six weeks simply became unrealistic.

That's why university projects tend to evolve over several years. Students can get involved as first year students, learn what is involved, and then gradually take on leadership positions over the course of their studies. To a high school student, used to a new challenge every year, that might seem a slow pace... but time moves more rapidly as you age. When you are fifteen a year is almost 7% of your life... but at 25 it is only 4% of your life. And it does seem to go by twice as fast!

I've seen this play out in a few different venues... we've had some excellent high school VEX teams in BC carry on as VEX U teams. I admire their dedication, but having a casual chat with one of the team members and looking at their robot I had to comment, "You don't have as much free time as you did in high school, eh?" He had to agree, "We haven't had as much time to work on the robot as we would have liked."

This past summer I took a BCIT team to the MATE ROV competition. In MATE, successful high school teams can move up and compete in the college category. (I think there is a film about that somewhere...) As a high school teacher I was really impressed that a high school could keep up with university teams... but now that I've worked with the college teams I learned that I pretty much had it backwards. Most of the high school students essentially have infinite time and support relative to the college teams... it was summed up most adequately when one of my students was approached by one of the parents there to support a very successful high school team, "So what team is your kid on?" the parent asked.

"My son is at home with his mother." explained my student. "I'm here to compete."

To a high school student, a college division of FRC makes sense. And that's a good thing. But looking back, and taking in the perspective of teaching both high school and post-secondary, the worlds are quite different. Treasure your time in high school, and treasure your FRC experience... but embrace new experiences when they present themselves.

When the time comes to be an FRC mentor, you'll be that much better at it for having a wide range of experiences to bring to the table.

Jason

[Tim Lehmann4967]

I have been a student in a FIRST program since 2006, when I was eight years old. Currently I am in my Junior year of high school, and I often think about what it will be like when I can no longer participate as a student. It is disturbing really...FIRST has been such a large part of my life, that I will miss it terribly. It has taught me so much of what I know, from public speaking to technical skills. I am looking at electrical engineering and a LOT of extracurricular robotics research projects for college. I think it would be cool if Ri3D became it's own competition, and it was solely for those no longer a student in FIRST.

[protoserge]

Being a mentor for a FIRST team is every bit as fun (and then some) as being a student. Don't fear!