Thank you GDC

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by GKrotkov

It's still possible to specialize and do well. You can focus on capping stacks, get picked by a powerhouse, and go far. You can focus on the co-op points and rank high, relying on superior scouting to make a run in eliminations. You will be outclassed by teams that can "do it all", but is that any different from other years?

Yeah, actually. In other years, robots with less functionality could do better than robots with more features, if they were good enough at their specialized tasks. Doing everything would at least slightly compromise your effectiveness at tasks. Take 2013 - the World Champions were two human load only* cyclers that hung from the lowest rung on the bar, and a similar robot with a floor pickup for autonomous. 610 was one of the fastest cyclers in the world, 1241 was very accurate and consistent, and 1477 was flexible and played intelligently as the alliance needed. All kinds of robots had more features than this alliance.

At the very least, if lower functionality robots weren't *better*, they could compete with the best. One winner of the 2012 IRI had no ability to shoot a basketball in any goal other than the 1 point goal. Where's the role for that style of robot this year?

In this game, alliances of three specialists can work, and they certainly put up points, but they get crushed by alliances of two do-it-all robots, or even one do-it-all robot with a strong semi-specialist partner. It's an uphill battle to say the least.

*Ignore 1241's auxillary auto intake here, they didn't use it in their key matches.

(and I don't know what you're talking about with 3 assist cycles losing to 2, in 2014 - that was certainly not the norm across the country at all)

[GKrotkov]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

and I don't know what you're talking about with 3 assist cycles losing to 2, in 2014 - that was certainly not the norm across the country at all

My point was that 2 assist cycles were plenty viable against 3 assist cycles at this time in the game's development, and I've been looking through some old footage, and I really do see it. If we look at week 3 gameplay* in 2014, you can see 2 assist cycles trumping 3 assist cycles a bunch.

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MAR:
Both week 3 events saw only two-assist cycles in the finals.

Michigan:
Both week 3 events showing fewer assists beating more assists. In Howell, 469 & 67 beat a three assist cycle with two assists. In Escabana, 1023 ran single cycles in finals 1 and won by about the same margin (12 pts off) as they did with a 2 assist cycle in finals 2.

North Carolina:
900 was certainly running 2 assists, but we can fairly leave this out. 900 was a special case.

St. Louis (Regional):
All I saw were 2 assist cycles from the winning alliance. It seems they were trying for 3, but only got 2 assists.

New York Tech Valley:
I saw a whole lot of 2-assist action from the winning and finalist alliances. That was probably due to 1126 being broadsided a lot, but it still happened.
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I think we can all agree that later on in the season, 3 assist cycles became the dominant way to play the game, but in 2014 week 3 it sure wasn't universal. The same kind of development could happen to this game, with specialists coming to be more and more powerful as the season goes on.


* The whole reason for week 3 is because that's all we've seen so far with Recycle Rush.

[tindleroot]

Originally Posted by GKrotkov

My point was that 2 assist cycles were plenty viable against 3 assist cycles at this time in the game's development, and I've been looking through some old footage, and I really do see it. If we look at week 3 gameplay* in 2014, you can see 2 assist cycles trumping 3 assist cycles a bunch.

In the 2014 Curie Quaterfinals 4-1, we(135) and 1241 managed to outscore the other alliance with 2-assists, but we lost the match due to a penalty
Sadly, there is no match footage, so you'll just have to take my word for it. It was pretty amazing to see 2-assists still relevant that late in season.

[Dan Petrovic]

Thank you for putting a hokey theme to this game.
Thank you for separating the two sides of the field.
Thank you for taking away wins and losses until the final matches.

Thank you for Recycle Rush, the largest FLL game ever.

[Rachel Lim]

Thank you for showing me that by eliminating every concern we had last year, we end up with a game that we like even less.
Bumpers, heavy defense, too few game pieces, etc.

Thank you for showing me that every game has its flaws, and that there will always be a group that suffers from that game.
Last year teams on alliances with robots that didn't move couldn't get assists, now we have the fact that 2 robots could win by themselves

Thank you for making me think about the real purpose of the games.
Is it an engineering challenge for those inside, or a way to draw people into STEM?

Thank you for making me think about what winning means to me
WLT was simple: you win or lose, and the other alliance loses or wins. With QA it could be either I want everyone to do their best, or I want everyone else to fail so we can win. I'm still not sure which one I prefer.

Thank you for showing me that despite all the changes, many things are still similar.
There's still a huge divide between top and average; still an issue of what most teams can do on the field; still qualification matches where many teams can't move, but elimination ones that are incredibly exciting; and still all the old arguments.

Thank you for making me rethink what I knew.
Change is here. This game has taught me how we deal with changes.

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by Rachel Lim

Thank you for showing me that by eliminating every concern we had last year, we end up with a game that we like even less.
Bumpers, heavy defense, too few game pieces, etc.

Thank you for showing me that every game has its flaws, and that there will always be a group that suffers from that game.
Last year teams on alliances with robots that didn't move couldn't get assists, now we have the fact that 2 robots could win by themselves

Thank you for making me think about the real purpose of the games.
Is it an engineering challenge for those inside, or a way to draw people into STEM?

Thank you for making me think about what winning means to me
WLT was simple: you win or lose, and the other alliance loses or wins. With QA it could be either I want everyone to do their best, or I want everyone else to fail so we can win. I'm still not sure which one I prefer.

Thank you for showing me that despite all the changes, many things are still similar.
There's still a huge divide between top and average; still an issue of what most teams can do on the field; still qualification matches where many teams can't move, but elimination ones that are incredibly exciting; and still all the old arguments.

Thank you for making me rethink what I knew.
Change is here. This game has taught me how we deal with changes.

Great post. It definitely made me give pause about this year's game, and how things have unfolded thus far.

Thank you GDC for essentially giving us exactly the game so many have wanted...

...as Rachel alluded to, you probably could've taken all the complaints anyone has ever had about every single FRC game prior, addressed them, and ended up with Recycle Rush.

Also, thank you GDC for not saying "I told you so!"