(Lack of) Value in the Regional Model

[Kevin Kolodziej]

Originally Posted by EricH

VA: 7-minute cycle time, breaking for just over an hour at lunch (1 hour, 5 minutes), ending at 5:20 PM and 11:34 AM with qual matches on Friday and Saturday respectively.
Orlando: 6-minute cycle time, breaking for one hour at lunch, ending at 5:45 PM and 12:11 PM respectively.

SNIP

All HQ needs to do is to tell the FTAs to "maximize matches/team, and run long if you need to", and ideally give them a event size vs plays/team range that they're looking for (60+, 9 matches down to <40, 12 matches). CD might never see that directive. But if it's there, then there's a good chance it will be followed.

Thanks for the data. This is one of the things I'm after. Who decides cycle time (I believe its the FTA) and how is it decided? I've been involved with events in the past that ran a 7 minute cycle until lunch on Friday and switched to a 6 minute cycle for the remainder since everyone by that point should know how the field operates. I figured Orlando had a shorter cycle - after experiencing the log jam of the field this weekend, I'm really surprised they achieved a 6 minute cycle and were pretty much on schedule. We were continually being hounded to move faster while stuck behind 2 other robots exiting the field as they reconfigured to transport config. I think this year's game is an anomaly for scheduling because of the transport config and I hope that those words are never mentioned in an FRC manual ever again.

One other thing that occurred at WI - the quals finished pretty much on schedule and alliance selections commenced immediately after. Selections were finished at about 12:15 with playoffs scheduled to 1:30 according to all published schedules. It was announced that playoffs would begin at 1:00 instead, thus reducing planning time, nourishment time for drivers/pit crew, and potentially causing guests who were told "come for the playoffs at 1:30 - they're the best!" to miss out on some action. Not a big deal, but I'd rather play more quals later than start elims earlier.

While I had not intended for this thread to become a "praise districts" thread, I'm glad to see there are facts coming out on both sides.

Rich2202: I don't know about districts, but the cost of a regional event is completely funded by the regional planning committee and none of the cost is covered by registration fees (I am on the WI planning committee). I heard at one point that district events DO get a portion of the registration fees (or rather, the district as a whole does to then use as it sees fit), but someone more knowledgeable than can probably clarify.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by EricH

So there is some room for variance built into the system. All you gotta do is go "hey, we need a tighter cycle time" and/or run a little longer, and hey presto, 1-2 more matches/team. It's not that hard. So it's a really simple fix, comparatively, and we don't even need to see it.

"hey, we need a tighter cycle time" - Easier said than done.

Which would you prefer: 7 minute cycle times where the FTA's have time to help robots connect, or more disable robots in order to stick with 6 minute cycle times?

It is easy to have sub-6 minute cycle times when robots are connecting. When running with 7 minute cycle times, that gives you a few minutes to help a team with a problem when they do come up.

[Sunshine]

Really Kevin? Had you played one more match the experience would have been that much better? Really? Why don't you count practice matches? I know our team was on the field on Thursday 6 times. Enjoyed that experience.

I for one do not like the idea of playing in a HS gym. Playing in a large arena is an experience most of our students and their families will never get otherwise.

As mentioned before, be careful what you ask for. The district model is more expensive for those who move on.

I for one do not like playing only with my neighbors. I like meeting and competing with teams from around the country and world. That's why we do Midwest, for the international feel.

I've always felt the Wisconsin Regional was very well run. I like the venue floor, the seating and the downtown atmosphere.

Can't answer your question about judges. I have no idea how many really were there. All I know is that we saw many more in our pit than you suggest. Is it possible that they were around while you were on the field with your team.

As you know, FIRST is more than just building robots. One of the great experiences our kids get involves fundraising and securing sponsors. This allows us to do two regionals. The second one at a location of our choice. This extends the season for our students and enriches the experience. Also gives them twice as many matches. As a side note, doing regionals around the Midwest has taught me just how appreciative I am about the Wisconsin Regional.

Please FIRST, keep both models and let people choose. As a consumer I like choices. I will not choose attending the high school gym. Hate the bleacher environment, FIRST is better than that.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by rich2202

"hey, we need a tighter cycle time" - Easier said than done.

Which would you prefer: 7 minute cycle times where the FTA's have time to help robots connect, or more disable robots in order to stick with 6 minute cycle times?

It is easy to have sub-6 minute cycle times when robots are connecting. When running with 7 minute cycle times, that gives you a few minutes to help a team with a problem when they do come up.

And even on a 7-minute cycle time, a larger event still had an extra match/team... The OTHER half of that statement was to run a bit longer in any given block of time.

I think a 6-minute cycle time is the ideal, given that you've got connecting robots, with 7-minute being more realistic. Smaller events could easily run 8-9 minute cycles, and stick to them, with more matches/team.


But, as part of the "Team Experience" directive from HQ, I think that FTAs should at least consider the effects of running longer on a day, or shortening the cycle time. If there aren't a lot of robots taking the full minute for Transport Configuration, and there aren't any connection issues of a major variety (L.A. had to reboot the field twice, and run a pair of replays, and still finished largely on schedule) then you can get away with more short cycles. Say 6.5 minute times.

I think the better alternative is for HQ to say "Hey, we want X matches/team minimum for an event of Y size, do what you need to do to make it work with the schedule." The FTA then has the flexibility to run faster cycles or longer hours, depending on the event.

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

I question the assertion that the district model is cheaper. For a team that does not perform well, they get more plays/$. I understand that. However, what about the teams that do succeed on the field? You get the privilege of going to district champs and paying $4000. If you do well there, you get the privilege of going to World's for another $5000. In a good year, you get to pay $4000 for the privilege of going to World's.

In VA they are touting it as a way of playing more for less cash. That logic doesn't jive with my wallet. Can some folks who are already in districts comment?

This right here. I love the district events, but it takes every penny you have. Our team this year has a good shot at regional champs, and if we make it any farther, we wont be able to go to worlds. paying $9000 is something we don't have, and our small admin team (me and two others, yay) now have to try and convince our mentors we can get the money (and get sponsorship's to get the money) to go to worlds if we make it, and that gives us... oh, two weeks to try and get all the money so we can pay for worlds if we make it. As is we have barely enough to pay for the regional championships. Lucky for us we live super close to EWU so hotels aren't an issue. Other than that, districts have been awesome.

[Jacob Paikoff]

Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej

Thanks for the data. This is one of the things I'm after. Who decides cycle time (I believe its the FTA) and how is it decided? I've been involved with events in the past that ran a 7 minute cycle until lunch on Friday and switched to a 6 minute cycle for the remainder since everyone by that point should know how the field operates. I figured Orlando had a shorter cycle - after experiencing the log jam of the field this weekend, I'm really surprised they achieved a 6 minute cycle and were pretty much on schedule. We were continually being hounded to move faster while stuck behind 2 other robots exiting the field as they reconfigured to transport config. I think this year's game is an anomaly for scheduling because of the transport config and I hope that those words are never mentioned in an FRC manual ever again.

Emphasis Mine

Running on schedule is a relative term, what the match results don't report is what time that match actually took place. Orlando ran 6 minute cycles so that everyone could get 10 matches. Friday morning matches ended at 12:45 and both Friday afternoon and Saturday morning ran about 30 minutes long. Despite the extended time I am glad that we committed to getting everyone as many matches as we could.

I agree with everything that's been said about the positives of districts. This is my first year in the district system and I really like it so far. I've been talking it up to everyone as I have been at regionals this season.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

I am having a discussion about ALL regional events and their value to a team. This has nothing to do with how my team did or performed. This is not a thread bashing the WI regional - I help plan and run it. Any and all comments I have for the event itself will be posted in the appropriate thread, not here.

With regards to the number of plays, as soon as we received the schedule and I saw only 9 matches, I was immediately disappointed knowing that we had more matches last year with the same number of teams. More matches is more chances for the students to show their work, to be under the lights, to feel the rush, to work with other teams. I do not count practice matches as the same experience because the only difference from them and what we do at home is the ceiling height - its not the same as a match with introductions, announcing, cheering, music, strategy, etc. Whether we play 10 practice matches like we did at Midwest last year or 0 like we did this weekend, it doesn't change anything about my opinions of the regional model and match play.

The district model is only more expensive for teams who currently only play 1 event. Quite a few WI teams already do play in two regional events (yours and mine included). Two district events and a district championship for the same $9000 we already pay sounds far better to me.

The district championship is like a current regional in a pro arena or a college arena. Its certainly a step up from a high school gym. While I certainly enjoy giving all students the opportunity to step on the floor of an arena, having them earn it and work to it will make it that much more special.

I agree with you about attending a second event to see new teams and new places. We've taken our kids to Duluth, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and will be returning home to Chicago in two weeks. Getting to meet people from far away, even other countries as we so often do at Midwest, its an experience the kids (and mentors) will treasure forever. I still do. But eventually, everyone WILL be in districts - but when that day happens, cross district play will be the norm, and these long distance friendships will continue to be forged.

[MooreteP]

Kevin,
I've been doing this as long as you, sigh..... I remember 5 Regionals and 200 Teams.
Now we're at 56 Regionals, 48 District Events, and 3,000 Teams.

Watched the growth and experienced the changes that it brought. The ideal of making this beautiful STEM combination of public and private more available to all students in all schools is a lofty one. With a few exceptions, this can be a tough hill to climb for many.

FIRST in Michigan took the bull by the horns and started the District System. They have an incredible number of rookies this year.
I am so happy that we went District last year. More bang for the buck and more intimate competitions.

Consider the cost of a typical High School Sports team.
The United States routinely spends more tax dollars per high-school athlete than per high-school math student—unlike most countries worldwide. And we wonder why we lag in international education rankings?

High School sports is a unique institution in America. It's makes us different from other countries. This may be why FIRST doesn't translate well internationally

High school football has high expenses, low revenue
The money spent on High School Sports is larger than spending on STEM depending on how you look at it.

Originally Posted by Foster

The district model is a way to get more "C", smaller, less flashy events with more play time.

OTOH there is the off season. Lots and lots and lots of $250 events. And I see teams do 1 official event and 8+ off seasons. So your teams value change may be in doing more off season events.

This^

Keep on fighting the good fight. Your feelings are shared.
A Wisconsin/Minnesota District could happen. You certainly have enough quality teams there.

[SoulianPride]

I've been going to districts since it was first introduced in Michigan in 2009 and I've loved it. It does not necessarily isolate you to one region because you can go to regional events and districts in other district systems. It is just that other district systems to not count towards State ranking and neither do regional events. One thing that I love in particular about it is awards. It makes it more difficult to go to the World Championships with Chairmans or EI because you have to win it at a District, then you have to win it again at States. Plus, States limits competition to the best of the best in the state. For Worlds, there is a wait list but States is just pulling from who has the highest rankings. For example, FIM will have the 102 best teams in the state competing there.

The $5000 registration fee covers 2 events and the KoP plus First Choice. Then, each additional district, if I remember correctly, is only $1000 more compared to a regional. Then, States is another $5000 because it is almost kind of like a regional and Worlds is $5000. It might depend on region but after pricing out a possible district event, my team found it closer to $25,000

As for the comment about FIM rookies. FIRST added it up and Michigan has more rookies this year then the rest of the US combined.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Really Kevin? Had you played one more match the experience would have been that much better? Really? Why don't you count practice matches? I know our team was on the field on Thursday 6 times. Enjoyed that experience.

I for one do not like the idea of playing in a HS gym. Playing in a large arena is an experience most of our students and their families will never get otherwise.

As mentioned before, be careful what you ask for. The district model is more expensive for those who move on.

I for one do not like playing only with my neighbors. I like meeting and competing with teams from around the country and world. That's why we do Midwest, for the international feel.

I've always felt the Wisconsin Regional was very well run. I like the venue floor, the seating and the downtown atmosphere.

Please FIRST, keep both models and let people choose. As a consumer I like choices. I will not choose attending the high school gym. Hate the bleacher environment, FIRST is better than that.

IMO, more matches mean the experience is greater and you pay less per match per cost of the regional.
Being in a district model doesnt mean you only play with your neighbors. If that was the case, how did Team 27 play in Duluth and win the RCA there in 2014, eventually winning the CCA? You can still play at a regional.

At IE this year, that was a regular regional, yet we played in a high school gym. Why did that have a cost of $5,000 to participate?

Personally, I dont care if I sit in a high school gym or a stadium....my focus is the experience students and adults get participating in the event.

Overall, I think Kevin is spot on. And while FIRST is still transitioning to moving to more and more district models, they certainly dont have to take forever in immediately changing the price model to make it more uniformly cost effective for ALL that participate.
Furthermore, as a member of a FIRST regional planning committee, I have known about the $250,000 cost for planning committees to come up with to pay FIRST. So can anyone explain how much the IE folks really paid given that the event was held at a high school?

The system is not perfect, I get it. But as the lead director of Team 359 for many many years, I can assure you that I have to be as transparent as possible, explaining to students, parents, and our stakeholders why we charge and spend what we do. Eyes are watching always and people have the right to ensure a fair experience based on goals and objectives, one of which is cost.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by bscharles

I agree that the District model gives more benefits in the end than using the Regional model. One of the main points I've heard by people arguing for regionals is that they are held at larger venues and have a more exciting atmosphere than district events held in high school gyms.

This was one of my team's worries when the PNW went to Districts, but we found it to not be true

[Joe Johnson]

Back when I was young, I thought large competitions were the way to go. But I was an idiot. Smaller competitions are way better. It sort of stinks if the 24th best team (a.k.a. the last team picked by the #1 Alliance) can barely move in the Elims but even that is preferable to fewer matches.

As to the cost of Districts vs. the cost of Regionals, the estimate of 60K vs. 250K may be an average number but I can tell you that there is a lot of variation around both those numbers.

I know a number of Regionals that go way way way over that 250K number and there are a few that are much closer to 100K.

As to the Districts, here in NE, I wouldn't be surprised if the number is close to that 60K number but from everything I have heard about how FiM is running their events, I think most of their Districts are done for a quarter of that number.

Having spent my formative FIRST years in Michigan, I am far from an unbiased observer but, the explosion of FIRST teams in Michigan since going to the District Model seems to point in the direction that less is more at least when it comes to spending on District Events.

Joe J.

[Drakxii]

I would love to be in a district model system. We already have to travel 120 miles to our only regional, so getting additional money for one more trip and 1 more night hotel is heck of a lot cheaper then paying for another full regional trip.

As for district champs, sure we might not have the money to go the first year but being able to say we qualified for state champs would help with funding and getting school support next year. Also at the end of the day if I have to pick between telling my kids that we don't have the funds for district champs/worlds, or that we need to get worse so we can be cheesecaked into winning our regional, I am going to choose the first option.

[AGPapa]

Originally Posted by rich2202

FWIW: I heard that it costs roughly $60,000 to put on a District Event at a high school vs. roughly $250,000 to put on a Regional event at an arena.

District events (at least in MAR) are cheaper than that. According to this document the budget for all six 2014 MAR districts was $135,000, or $22,500 per event.

MAR got $111,000 from FIRST that year, and raised the other $345,000 through sponsors. So only only 24.3% of MAR's budget is from registration fees. Interestingly enough, 24.3% of the average cost of a district event is only $5,500. So MAR runs an entire district event with less than the registration fee of one rookie.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Really Kevin? Had you played one more match the experience would have been that much better? Really? Why don't you count practice matches? I know our team was on the field on Thursday 6 times. Enjoyed that experience.

I for one do not like the idea of playing in a HS gym. Playing in a large arena is an experience most of our students and their families will never get otherwise.

As mentioned before, be careful what you ask for. The district model is more expensive for those who move on.

For its first nine years across three venues, the Palmetto Regional was held in arenas--two primarily basketball (Colonial Center and Littlejohn Coliseum) and one primarily hockey (North Charleston Coliseum). When it moved to the Myrtle Beach Convention Center in 2013, I was very skeptical of the move as other convention center regionals I'd attended hadn't had the same feel, like you state. This year, I had the privilege to work the finals as the game announcer--and lemme tell you, that crowd was hot and it had a big-time feel. A similar phenomenon happens with a good (if smaller) crowd at SCRIW, which has only ever been held in a high school gym. There's a reason an incredible dunk in a high school basketball game can still get thousands of views on YouTube--good product is good product.

The move to Myrtle Beach was also the same time that Palmetto, like so many other events in the area, jumped in team count from the 40s into the 60s (and we still have capacity problems in the region). Like Kevin, I have concerns that this is just too big for a Good Team to feel like they're having a successful, rewarding season. I'm not saying everyone needs a trophy, but you hope that a team doing the right thing and building solid machines will at least make the playoffs or snag an award here and there--having one's faith rewarded helps a lot sometimes. In the three seasons Palmetto has been this size, the seven teams in the Columbia area (two of whom started in 2014, most of whom I've got history with) have combined for zero Palmetto Regional playoff appearances and zero awards. From knowing the teams and seeing the machines, it is disconcerting that our collective not-that-blind squirrels have yet to find a single nut--especially when three of them are one-and-done teams this year and a fourth was for a couple of those years. I remark as such on the event evaluations, but I suspect the only relief we'll see on that is the day South Carolina goes to districts.

Please FIRST, keep both models and let people choose. As a consumer I like choices. I will not choose attending the high school gym. Hate the bleacher environment, FIRST is better than that.

IRI is held in a high school gymnasium. (Okay, it's an Indiana high school gymnasium...) You do not get a team to crate their robot and ship it halfway around the world, get dozens more to arm-twist school districts about a summer field trip, turn away dozens more teams on top of that, and some years get your feed on NASA TV if you aren't running a solid event, no matter how good the teams may be. I love pushing a cart into the big arena as much as the next man, but don't knock it 'til you try it.