(Lack of) Value in the Regional Model

[techhelpbb]

I was FTAA at Mount Olive District Event.
The cycle times started slowly but very quickly we waited on the field to connect to the robots.
If the field and the robots connected quicker we could have gone even faster.
Even with that we slowed down on Sunday because we actually were ahead of the schedule once we got the rhythm down.

So to a certain extent the speed is dictated by the field connectivity.
Hopefully there are some ways to accelerate that in the future.

If you watch the video during the match setup I am often on the field waiting for the robots to complete the process which would end just before we would start the match.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

I was FTAA at Mount Olive District Event.
The cycle times started slowly but very quickly we waited on the field to connect to the robots.
If the field and the robots connected quicker we could have gone even faster.
Even with that we slowed down on Sunday because we actually were ahead of the schedule once we got the rhythm down.

So to a certain extent the speed is dictated by the field connectivity.
Hopefully there are some ways to accelerate that in the future.

IIRC a key to that would be upgrading from the D-Links to the proposed USB dongle that didn't get off the ground this year.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

IIRC a key to that would be upgrading from the D-Links to the proposed USB dongle that didn't get off the ground this year.

I think there's a bit more to it than that.
We noted that if we restarted the DS software sometimes it would go faster.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

I think there's a bit more to it than that.
We noted that if we restarted the DS software sometimes it would go faster.

I can't remember the times since I am not a CSA or FTA, but isn't it something like >= 30 seconds for bootup and >= 50 seconds for connection to establish for the router, or are my numbers backwards or totally wrong?

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I can't remember the times since I am not a CSA or FTA, but isn't it something like >= 30 seconds for bootup and >= 50 seconds for connection to establish for the router, or are my numbers backwards or totally wrong?

Sounds close. If the teams turned on their robots the minute they sat them on the field they could get out of transport configuration and align them and often exit the field before they completed the field connection. Some robots could not be safely turned on, or would not operate correctly, if they were turned on the minute they were sat on the field. So those teams held up the process (safety and correct operation are very important so the delay was reasonable).

If we could accelerate the field connection after the radio ready the match resets could save 1 minute and over the course of 60 or more matches that adds up.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I can't remember the times since I am not a CSA or FTA, but isn't it something like >= 30 seconds for bootup and >= 50 seconds for connection to establish for the router, or are my numbers backwards or totally wrong?

From my experience at Waterbury week 1, the main delay was the driver station software sometimes not connecting to the field, which was blamed on mDNS. They had us enable/disable network adapters and restart the driver station application to get it to connect. The problem appeared to happen frequently when we tethered to the robot with the laptop while in queue, then unplugged and went straight to the field.

The problem also happens in reverse-going from field to tethered mode doesn't work with restarts, reset, and long delays.


When all worked well, match times weren't too bad because many teams turned on their robots before placing them out on the field.

[Sunshine]

Sorry Billfred, been to IRI once and only once. For the same reason I tried stating earlier. Don't like the bleacher/cafeteria environment. It felt like a high school volleyball event (nothing wrong with that) versus a Regional like Wisconsin where it feels like a really big deal to students and parents. Different strokes for different folks. (Still have fond memories of Atlanta, loved it there, more than St. Louis)

IMHO FIRST has always been different, special and unique. The arena experience is part of this. I don't want to become just another gym experience. Nor do my sponsors I think.

Some of our sponsors give us 2-5k. I fear that we would loose some of this support if they thought it was just another high school event. When we invite them to our regional events they mention how empressed they are. I don't see any high school sports teams getting the outside sponsor support we get.

I'd like to hear from those who made the switch and had major sponsors. Did they stick with you after attending districts?

Kevin, not sure why you reference your team performance? I nor anyone else mentioned it. Gotta ask. Are you totally against Regionals now? Or if they give you 1-2 more matches and judges you'll be happy?

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

In VA they are touting it as a way of playing more for less cash. That logic doesn't jive with my wallet. Can some folks who are already in districts comment?

I can't speak for other districts, but MAR put together a grant to help teams pay for district championship registration or travel costs, as well as world CMP registration.

@marwallet

[EricLeifermann]

As someone who started in the regional system then moved to Michigan and fought the District system for several reasons(feel free to look at my old posts on the topic) and then moved back to the regional system. I miss the district system. A well run district competition is almost indistinguishable from a full blown regional. The district system allows those with smaller budgets to get more play, when they might only get 7-10 matches in the regional system. The district system also allows teams to qualify for championships who might not have qualified had they been in the regional system, without diluting the talent pool at champs.

On the whole those who think districts will ruin the experience(me in the past) have never competed in the district system and don't truly get why people love it.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Kevin, not sure why you reference your team performance? I nor anyone else mentioned it. Gotta ask. Are you totally against Regionals now? Or if they give you 1-2 more matches and judges you'll be happy?

Your earlier post questioned whether our experience would have been better had we had one more match. Yes. That's the whole point - the team experience. Experience and performance often go hand in hand, but this has nothing to do with our performance. Its about our experience.

I was curious when we only had 9 matches instead of 10 if other reigonals this year were having fewer matches as well. Thats when I found the large disparity between Virginia and Orlando. While that was the catalyst to start this thread, the ideas in this thread are nothing new and I've been asking these questions privately to individuals for years. I have been in favor of districts for several years. Am I against regionals? They are better than nothing....but that doesn't mean I have to like them.

You should bring your team to RoboFest and see how much fun a small event can be. We have no cafeterias or gymnasiums.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I for one do not like the idea of playing in a HS gym. Playing in a large arena is an experience most of our students and their families will never get otherwise.

Agreed, however FRC has started a trend of hosting actual regional events at high schools. There are four regionals at high schools this season, and I expect that number to grow in the future. (Unless the switch to districts happens a lot faster than anticipated.

[smart1]

Just a hypothetical question I have about first switching to districts, what about teams in Iowa or other states with few Frc teams? What would they do?

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by smart1

Just a hypothetical question I have about first switching to districts, what about teams in Iowa or other states with few Frc teams? What would they do?

In past threads there have been a few different suggestions-- ranging from voluntary inclusion (something that seems unlikely), to having them play at other regional events. Personally, I'd love to see a North-Midwest (MN, WI, IA, ND, SD) District system happen somehow, but that seems pretty unlikely based on current precedents.

[tStano]

I am a senior on Kevin's team. I've driven at Northern Lights, Midwest, Championships and Milwaukee. I have never attended a district event.

What I really would like to understand and don't is what exactly happens to the money from registration fees for regionals.

Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej

The cost of a regional event is completely funded by the regional planning committee and none of the cost is covered by registration fees (I am on the WI planning committee).

I understand that building/transporting the field costs money and hiring staff costs money, but my understanding is that regionals are almost completely volunteer-run. I understand the kits cost money, but there's less and less useful material in there every year. This year, there were precious few pneumatic components(they were available in FIRST choice, but my understanding is that that stuff is donated). And its also my understanding is a lot of that KOP stuff is donated as well... most of the vouchers, 8 denso throttle motors, IGUS bag, etc.

I understand the new control system costs money, but I can buy one on andymark for 770$, not 5000$. And even after that, the second event cost is 4000$ extra, you can't even think about including the kit in that, and that money appears to go straight to FIRST.

It seems to me that it doesn't cost FIRST much more to run a regional than to run a district, so why are teams being charged more for them? I suppose it creates an incentive to go to districts, which works in some areas but not in others. What happens to the Turkish teams I meet at Midwest after the last affordable North American air hub goes to districts?(not saying the last affordable hub is Chicago, but the plan seems to be districts everywhere)

From what I've gleamed from team budgets, much of the travel budget isn't registration, but is instead travel and lodging. Sparsely populated areas with no events nearby can afford one travel event, and thats it. How can we expect them to afford to travel twice under the district model?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

In past threads there have been a few different suggestions-- ranging from voluntary inclusion (something that seems unlikely), to having them play at other regional events. Personally, I'd love to see a North-Midwest (MN, WI, IA, ND, SD) District system happen somehow, but that seems pretty unlikely based on current precedents.

I've always been a fan of keeping a few traditional regionals around like back in the "Open" days, even with 90+% of FRC in the district system. Have a Midwest, Southwest, Pacific, Southeast, Northeast, Hawaii, Eurpoean, and Pan-Pacific "Open" that stick around. Just like regionals, but outside of teams that have to go there, other teams can apply to go to the open tournaments.