(Lack of) Value in the Regional Model

[JesseK]

For everyone comparing VA to Orlando, there is an external factor here. We have a new head of VA FIRST, and this was his first time running an event on this scale (AFAIK). I wouldn't worry about burdening him with telematics until he's had a chance to digest what it takes to run a successful FRC event. From the webcast, I think he did very well as there weren't any discernible issues.

I've seen several sides to how Regionals are run, including from a corporate sponsor's perspective. Sponsoring of venues for the DC or VCU events brings up the question of relative value every single year. This is especially highlighted by the fact that 1000's of kids over 8 years in local VRC and FTC events got just as much out of their competition events as FRC. Yet FRC itself is a premium program with its specific merits, so they continue to sponsor it.

I don't understand how the tradeoffs to districts in VA are any different from any other area of the country, especially those areas which have overcome the same problems inherent with transitioning to the district system that VA has. I seem to remember a survey about districts a couple of years ago, but I don't remember if the actual results were ever posted from that survey.\

Originally Posted by Sunshine

IMHO a big part (being redundant now) in the overall experience for kids is getting out and raising $$.

For teams who usually attend 2 Regionals and have a reserve for World Champs, the amount of fundraising will be the roughly same as a team who attends 2 district events, District Champs and has a reserve for World Champs. Thus I think the fundraising argument is somewhat weak.

Also, the kids will get 2 chances to present Chairman's by default at the District events. They'll get another opportunity at District Champs, if they got CA at a District Event.

[Nemo]

FIRST HQ makes the teams do their fundraising for them. We raise something like $20 million each year in the form of registration fees to pay for the cost of running FIRST HQ and whatever else it pays for.

FIRST doesn't tell us where this money goes. Their annual report has one line that says "XY million: FRC expenses," and that's all we get to see.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Nemo

FIRST HQ makes the teams do their fundraising for them. We raise something like $20 million each year in the form of registration fees to pay for the cost of running FIRST HQ and whatever else it pays for.

IMO this is a good system. It promotes partnerships between schools (or other pre-college student groups) and industry sponsors, and it provides an entry-level for sponsoring the mission of FIRST: sponsor a team. Other kinds of sponsorship should begin there, because a sponsor needs to see FIRST from a team's perspective to understand how this thing of ours works.

Originally Posted by Nemo

FIRST doesn't tell us where this money goes. Their annual report has one line that says "XY million: FRC expenses," and that's all we get to see.

I expect this to change as Frank and his HQ team continuously improve transparency. Their track record since Frank took over the FRC is great and getting better all the time. The CD community can help by keeping our concern about transparency where FIRST can see it. Frank can't do this all by himself.

[MrRoboSteve]

Originally Posted by Nemo

FIRST HQ makes the teams do their fundraising for them. We raise something like $20 million each year in the form of registration fees to pay for the cost of running FIRST HQ and whatever else it pays for.

FIRST doesn't tell us where this money goes. Their annual report has one line that says "XY million: FRC expenses," and that's all we get to see.

It took me two minutes to find the audited financial statements and the form 990, which have a lot more data than "XY million: FRC expenses."

[Alyssa]

I am very much so excited for California to transfer to the district model soon. I think it will lead to more play time and more opportunities for teams to attend Champs. However, as many have said, there are a lot of tradeoffs. I for one am not looking forward to missing even more school than I already do for robotics. Of course, I love competition and I will continue to do anything possible to compete as much as possible. But I know my teachers and many other teachers on campus are not happy when the same group of 50+ students on my team are gone for the last part of the week multiple weeks in a row.

That being said, I love competition and am glad more teams will be given the ability to go on in competition in the district model.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by alyssa2485

I am very much so excited for California to transfer to the district model soon. I think it will lead to more play time and more opportunities for teams to attend Champs. However, as many have said, there are a lot of tradeoffs. I for one am not looking forward to missing even more school than I already do for robotics. Of course, I love competition and I will continue to do anything possible to compete as much as possible. But I know my teachers and many other teachers on campus are not happy when the same group of 50+ students on my team are gone for the last part of the week multiple weeks in a row.

That being said, I love competition and am glad more teams will be given the ability to go on in competition in the district model.

More often than not district events take place on Saturdays and Sundays so you won't be missing any more school time than before. You may be missing even less.

[Lil' Lavery]

While I didn't run the numbers, I wouldn't automatically characterize it as "more often than not" districts are Sat/Sun affairs. I'd say it's a fairly even split between the two schedules.

This season, Dawgma students are going to miss 2-3 days of school for all three of our events combined (depending if they're part of the crew we bring Thursday to MAR Champs). We had one season where they didn't miss any school at all.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

While I didn't run the numbers, I wouldn't automatically characterize it as "more often than not" districts are Sat/Sun affairs. I'd say it's a fairly even split between the two schedules.

This season, Dawgma students are going to miss 2-3 days of school for all three of our events combined (depending if they're part of the crew we bring Thursday to MAR Champs). We had one season where they didn't miss any school at all.

A quick TBA scan tells me it is indeed still leaning Fri-Sat rather than Sat-Sun.

That said, another good thing about Districts is how responsive they are. That is, if you respond. (District events and the district model itself happen because the people in the district make them happen.) Have enough people concerned enough about missing Friday that they're willing to work on a Sat-Sun option (or the other way around)? You can make it happen, particularly in a place that's as FRC-dense as San Diego. Disclaimer: I know nothing about San Diego; I just typed the first zip code Google gave me into the FRC team search engine.

MAR leans very heavily Sat-Sun while FIM leans heavily the other way. PNW and NE seem more split.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

While I didn't run the numbers, I wouldn't automatically characterize it as "more often than not" districts are Sat/Sun affairs. I'd say it's a fairly even split between the two schedules.

This season, Dawgma students are going to miss 2-3 days of school for all three of our events combined (depending if they're part of the crew we bring Thursday to MAR Champs). We had one season where they didn't miss any school at all.

I said S/S because I know MAR leans heavily S/S and with Cali's frequent Fri-Sun regionals they might have more S/S events when they go to districts in 2022 or whenever. I do know that MI has a LOT of Fri-Sun and last year I know NE had a T/F and S/S event one week because IIRC Andy Grady worked both events.

Originally Posted by Siri

A quick TBA scan tells me it is indeed still leaning Fri-Sat rather than Sat-Sun.

That said, another good thing about Districts is how responsive they are. That is, if you respond. (District events and the district model itself happen because the people in the district make them happen.) Have enough people concerned enough about missing Friday that they're willing to work on a Sat-Sun option (or the other way around)? You can make it happen...

Always a salient point.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve

It took me two minutes to find the audited financial statements and the form 990, which have a lot more data than "XY million: FRC expenses."

Ok, I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing me to the IRS 990 form. It lists some expenses broken down by categories like salaries, information technology, and travel. It also has an $11M category called "additional robot expenses."

The first form you linked is what I was thinking of. It has FRC reduced to a single line item as you can see in the copied section below from page 6 of the pdf:



This is the form that is available on FIRST's "Annual Report and Financials" page. That is why I came under the impression that they aren't disclosing a whole lot about their expenses.

[cadandcookies]

That form 990 is crazy. The government could probably save a few trees if they let nonprofits condense that grants section.

[ratdude747]

I will preface this post by reminding you, the viewer, that these are my personal opinions, nothing less, nothing more.

Having spent 7 years on the regional system, the most recent 3 as a volunteer, and this year on the district system, I have noticed some pro's and con's to both systems. Here's my personal take on switching to districts:

Pro's:

-Lower cost to Teams. Registration gets 2 events, not 1, out of the box, with a third only $1000 more (not $4000).
-More matches per team: as the Scorekeeper at all IN events this year, We have been (IIRC as per FIRST mandate) giving teams 12 Qual Matches per event.
-Reduced Travel costs: Fewer days and shorter travel distances (for most teams, minus border teams).
-More local events: In my case, as opposed to only being able to do 2 local events as a volunteer, now I can do 4. While many do not have schedules that this benifits, for those that do and love to volunteer, it is indeed a plus and also builds the "family" within the State's volunteers.

Con's:

-Higher up front costs to the state's organization: The state has to provide all the AV equipment, volunteer radios (minus the referees), Field perimeter (yay AndyMark for a lower cost field), and as we found out, the medals rack for the awards ceremony.
-Fewer "consumables"; We were shorted on name Badges and T-shirts... while the latter is not much of an issue as there is a lot of overlap between even crews, the Name badges are cheap enough that it feels, honestly, skimpy. Hence why my Badge has now two (soon, three) crossed out event names on it.
-(perceived) lower priority with support from HQ. There have been a few things that I am not going to mention publicly on CD (PM me if you REALLY want to know) that, at least from the sound of things, would we have been a regional event, would have been immediately fixed, but instead, as a district, are "less of an issue" and have been left in limbo. Obviously, the show must go on either way, and thanks to our determination we've pushed through the setbacks so much that most attendees wouldn't have noticed anything.
-Higher cost of Teams going to Championships. For a Non-HOF and Non-Legacy team (or a team not pre-qualified), they must effectively pay $4000 extra if they want to go to Worlds. Why? Their only two routes to get there are either thorough a regional as a 3rd event or making and attending State Champs, both of which are a $4000 check to HQ away. Sure, you get another event out of the deal, but if you want to play, you (or sponsors) gotta pay.

Non-issues:
-Size: the size and "flash" don't seem to be as big of a thing as one would have thought beforehand. While the audio and lighting isn't as good, the volunteer AV crew has done a great job (being scorekeeper, I have to work with them a lot).


Final thoughts:

Districts are the way of the future, like it or not. There have been and will be some growing pains as more places adopt the system. Once more areas are on it, I imagine that a lot of the con's on my list will no longer apply or be much reduced. However, the one issue that could be troublesome is championship fee issue, which to me, conflicts with the idea of having a bigger championship. There is only so much money in circulation, and to me, making championships should be a matter of merit, not of wealth. Sure, there has to be some cost somewhere, but this IMHO isn't the way to go. Overall, however, the system can be made to work well, better than the regional system, especially if the local FIRST family has enough determination and supports one another.

(again, there are my personal thoughts, no the thoughts of anybody else but me).

[mathking]

Joe said:

I believe that the District Model is the way FIRST gets us where we want to go: FIRST Robotics = Something Every High School Just Does.

This is what I want. Yes FIRST is expensive. But it is not really outrageously expensive compared to operating sports teams. (For the record, I am firm supporter of sports teams, and have read the article cited earlier in this thread about sports teams vs. math students and as a trained statistician have a few quibbles with it.) Most schools could probably afford $10000 a year to support a FIRST team as long as the team had a decent number of students. And if schools contribute more it should be easier to get sponsors to help when teams qualify to the district or world championships. Think about the cost of a field perimeter. Fairly expensive for one school. Not as great a cost for a group of schools. Think of your school's athletic league purchasing one for its teams to use. Furthermore, when this becomes something that schools just do, then travel costs for the first level of competition drop dramatically.

Yes, I will miss seeing some of the teams from far away (and maybe with inter-district play some of this could come back) but I will also be highly gratified to see kids from the local schools that don't have teams get a chance to play. And it will be fun to play some of our local rivals. I also coach track and field and cross country. These are two sports in which the opponents are often friends as well as rivals. I believe the quality of play will improve as we get more scrimmages and there is more local support for teams.

Yes the district model is more expensive than a regional model if you are a team that plans on one regional and the championship. But how many teams is that really? And most of those are probably infrequent qualifiers to the championship. The district model gives you a chance to more easily earn advancement to another level of competition. For some teams this could be a really a big deal. As I said in an earlier thread, we have been lucky enough to qualify for the world championships fairly often. Many other local teams have not. For teams that routinely attend at least two competitions before the Championships the district model offers a more economical model. For us, it would make attending two competitions an every year thing instead of a twice in thirteen years thing.

As for venues, I agree that all other things being equal, the big venues have more wow factor. But that is all other things being equal. Anyone who has ever been to a high school basketball game in Indiana can attest to the fact that even a small gym can be absolutely rocking with excitement. A good sized high school gym with a full crowd can be every bit as exciting as a half full college arena. It can certainly be louder. I think a lot of how such an event comes off depends on how the adults approach it. Any coach can tell you that the mental state of a team depends a lot on how the coach prepares them. I find it hard to believe, for example, that team 379 attends will not be a loud, exciting affair.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by JesseK

For everyone comparing VA to Orlando, there is an external factor here. We have a new head of VA FIRST, and this was his first time running an event on this scale (AFAIK). I wouldn't worry about burdening him with telematics until he's had a chance to digest what it takes to run a successful FRC event. From the webcast, I think he did very well as there weren't any discernible issues.

I've seen several sides to how Regionals are run, including from a corporate sponsor's perspective. Sponsoring of venues for the DC or VCU events brings up the question of relative value every single year. This is especially highlighted by the fact that 1000's of kids over 8 years in local VRC and FTC events got just as much out of their competition events as FRC. Yet FRC itself is a premium program with its specific merits, so they continue to sponsor it.

I don't understand how the tradeoffs to districts in VA are any different from any other area of the country, especially those areas which have overcome the same problems inherent with transitioning to the district system that VA has. I seem to remember a survey about districts a couple of years ago, but I don't remember if the actual results were ever posted from that survey.\


For teams who usually attend 2 Regionals and have a reserve for World Champs, the amount of fundraising will be the roughly same as a team who attends 2 district events, District Champs and has a reserve for World Champs. Thus I think the fundraising argument is somewhat weak.

Also, the kids will get 2 chances to present Chairman's by default at the District events. They'll get another opportunity at District Champs, if they got CA at a District Event.

I don't think Stan set the cycle time at VA. Jeff Wetzel was the FTA at the event and he posts on here frequently so if he catches this he could provide insight. I wouldn't be surprised if the long cycle times were due to the occasional really long delays in connecting on Thursday, but I have no clue what it was.