WITH HOLDING

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by martin417

(emphasis mine)
If you count assemble as a "modification", then you can't use any gearboxes from a previous years' robot, as it was fabricated prior to the season.

Darn right! Our robot this year uses 8 gearboxes. Most were purchased before kickoff day. All were assembled during build season. If we had assembled them prior to kickoff day, we could have completed our robot earlier, providing us with a significant competitive advantage.

Originally Posted by martin417

I know some teams buy shifting transmissions (expensive) and use them for several years.

So you are saying that we are competing against teams who are assembling their sub-components prior to kickoff day? If you truly believe they are not breaking the rules, please supply the numbers of these teams. If we play against them at our upcoming events we'll let the robot inspectors decide if they are playing legally or not.

Originally Posted by martin417

If you are going to point out that you could disassemble and then re-assemble the gearbox to make it legal, then I have to say that is just dumb. I don't believe that the GDC wants teams to perform mindless tasks that have no benefit to the kids.

What the GDC committee wants is for everyone to be playing by the same set of rules. Whether you (or me for that matter) think the rules are "dumb", or simply inconvenient, doesn't allow you or me to just not follow the ones we don't like.

Originally Posted by martin417

If an item is bought in an un-assembled state, and subsequently assembled to the directions (so it ends up in the state intended by the manufacturer), then it is still COTS.

Our team's most precious resource during build season is time. It takes time to assemble things. The rules are written so that assembly of everything you didn't purchase pre-assembled must take place after kickoff day. Our team's strategy to get to an assembled drive train is to prepurchase all our COTS parts before kickoff day. Extending your argument beyond just gearboxes, if we were to decide to use an Andymark 2016 KOP chassis on our next year's robot, we could buy one ahead of time, assemble it, and save a ton of build time after kickoff. After all, the kit includes a full chassis, wheels and gearboxes. So, on kickoff day 2016 we slap on some CIMs, and we've got our working drivetrain good to go. THIS is kind of thing the GDC doesn't want to see happening.

[FrankJ]

This is a little bit of a rabbit hole. You disassemble a banebox or vex planetary gear box, grease it, put it back together, Is it no longer COTs item? Attach a cots motor to it. That makes it an assembly? What if the same assembly is available for purchase (COTS)? While most inspectors will pass small violations (pinion pressed on a motor) obviously there is a limit IE assembling a COTs chassis is for beyond this.

This is an area I wish the GDC would clarify in future years.

[excel2474]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

...obviously there is a limit IE assembling a COTs chassis is for beyond this.

I don't think it's far beyond. After all, AndyMark could sell a pre-assembled kit chassis and just charge a bit more for shipping.

My 2 cents is that I don't care if a team pre-assembles a kit chassis before build season because I think the kit chassis is a disadvantage anyway.

[Jon Stratis]

I've never hassled a team for having a pre-assembled gear box before. Teams that have come in overweight I've often had take off motors and/or gear boxes (including separating the motor and gear box) in order to make weight with everything else. The time a team invests in making weight for their withholding is a good lesson for them moving forward (while instituting a "time penalty" to make things fair with respect to everyone else at the event), and it's rare I see the same team make the mistake two seasons in a row.

That said, when it comes to my own team, I don't let them just use an old gearbox that was assembled in a previous season as-is. They need to take the gearbox apart, clean it up (old grease isn't necessarily a good thing, it can get full of contaminants and other stuff!), check to make sure none of the gears are worn down significantly, and then finally re-grease and re-assemble. There's a lot a student can learn about how a gearbox works doing this that they otherwise wouldn't see!

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by excel2474

I don't think it's far beyond. After all, AndyMark could sell a pre-assembled kit chassis and just charge a bit more for shipping.

My 2 cents is that I don't care if a team pre-assembles a kit chassis before build season because I think the kit chassis is a disadvantage anyway.

Except you assemble the chassis as delivered, it will not meet the transport size constraints. Once you cut the rails, not even the most generous interpretation can call it COTs. Sizing constraints is one of things the GDC does play with year to year.

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

You disassemble a banebox or vex planetary gear box, grease it, put it back together, Is it no longer COTs item?

Of course not. You purchased a gearbox. (COTS) You purchased grease. (COTS) You expended time and effort to assemble the grease to the gearbox. That makes it a non-COTS assembly.

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Attach a cots motor to it. That makes it an assembly?

Of course it does.

Originally Posted by FrankJ

What if the same assembly is available for purchase (COTS)?

AndyMarks sells am-0914, a gearmotor which is the assembly of their motor am-2161 and their gearbox am-0939. You can purchase the motor and gearbox separately, assemble them, and have an am-0914 gearmotor, which is a single COTS item on your BOM. Banebots sells PG60 gearboxes assembled, but ungreased. They also sell RS550 motors, which you can assemble to the PG60 gearbox. They do NOT sell a COTS gearmotor that is the assembly of the two. So, if you buy these seperately, and assemble them, you have not created a COTS item, you have created a non-COTS assembly of three (including grease) COTS items.

Originally Posted by FrankJ

While most inspectors will pass small violations (pinion pressed on a motor) obviously there is a limit IE assembling a COTs chassis is for beyond this.

The rules make no such distinction.

Originally Posted by FrankJ

This is an area I wish the GDC would clarify in future years.

We wouldn't need to wait for future years if someone would submit a question to QA. (I can't do this myself.)

Believe me, I will be delighted if pre-assembly of COTS kits becomes legal. You can bet we will leverage this to the max, if it becomes legal. What troubles me is that it sounds like some teams have already decided the rule isn't to their liking and have chosen to sidestep it.

If I ordered a heathkit shortwave radio, and assembled it per the manufacturers instructions, could I return the fully assembled radio to heathkit and expect a refund? Of course not. I have changed the kit from the state it was in when I purchased it. Could I purchase a VEXpro gearbox, assemble it, use it for a year, then return it? Of course not. It's no longer in the COTS state. Could I purchase a VEXpro gearbox as a spare, and return it to VEX, unassembled, after competition season ended, if I didn't need it? That wouldn't be kind to VEX, but if I returned it in its COTS state, they would probably accept the return.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by ToddF

...The rules make no such distinction.

Yes that is why I call it a small violation. Falls under the intention of the rule rather than lawyering the letter of the rule. I can see the logic of both ways.

...We wouldn't need to wait for future years if someone would submit a question to QA. (I can't do this myself.)

Best not to ask questions to the GDC you really don't want an answer to. Q&A would only apply to this years game anyway. It is a mute question for my team. The only gear box it would apply to for us is a nano tuffbox that comes assembled.

...If I ordered a heathkit shortwave radio, and assembled it per the manufacturers instructions,

They still make those? I guess it would be a custom circuit. You are showing your age.

[Michael Hill]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

They still make those? I guess it would be a custom circuit. You are showing your age.

You should see my bench...I have a couple of HP power supplies...yes HP, not Agilent....er...Keysight. Also, having a scope older than I am should be worth something.

[excel2474]

Originally Posted by ToddF

Of course not. You purchased a gearbox. (COTS) You purchased grease. (COTS) You expended time and effort to assemble the grease to the gearbox. That makes it a non-COTS assembly.

What is the definition of a "non-COTS assembly" according the the 2015 game manual. I don't see it in there.

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by excel2474

What is the definition of a "non-COTS assembly" according the the 2015 game manual. I don't see it in there.

You are correct. However, the definition of COTS is quite clearly defined. I think we may reasonable infer that a "non-COTS assembly" is an assembly which doesn't qualify as COTS.

Section 4.1: "Many rules in this section reference Commercial-Off-The-Shelf (COTS) items. A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from a VENDOR for all Teams for purchase. To be a COTS item, the COMPONENT or MECHANISM must be in an unaltered, unmodified state."

The key words in the definition being UNALTERED and UNMODIFIED.

From the Glossary: "COTS – a “Commercial, Off-The-Shelf” COMPONENT or MECHANISM, in its unaltered, unmodified state. A COTS item must be a standard (i.e. not custom order) part commonly available from the VENDOR, available from a non-Team source, and available to all Teams for purchase. Items that are no longer commercially available but are functionally equivalent to the original condition as delivered from the VENDOR are considered COTS and may be used."

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by excel2474

What is the definition of a "non-COTS assembly" according the the 2015 game manual. I don't see it in there.

Probably a better wording would be "fabricated" assembly. When you put to COTs items together or modify a COTs item (assembly), they become "fabricated" rather than COTs

Applying simple logic: anything that does not meet the definition of "COTS" is "NON-COTS"

[excel2474]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Probably a better wording would be "fabricated" assembly. When you put to COTs items together or modify a COTs item (assembly), they become "fabricated" rather than COTs

I agree that it could fall under the category of "Fabricated". However, I'm still stuck on the fact that if I buy items "A" and "B" separately and put them together myself, it's called "Fabricated", but if I purchased the exact same 2 items pre-assembled it would be "COTs". That doesn't seem like the intent of the rule.