Choose Drive station positions - Playoffs

[TitanChris]

Would like to have The Alliance captain specify drive station positions for their alliance. Our alliance this past weekend had two teams in sub-optimal positions. Our referee stood firm that positions are alliance captain in the middle, 1st choice on their left, and second choice on right.

Is that a rule, procedure, or just a habit? could you have longer network cables that would allow drive stations to connect to the appropriate netwok drop, but in the better positions?

Not trying to be sneaky. Just think that an alliance shouldn't be penalized by being in suboptimal positions. Playoffs only! Qualififying rounds should rotate as done currently.

[Ichlieberoboter]

I think this is certainly a valid argument. It doesn't really make sense for alliances to have to be in those positions. I am not sure if this is a rule or just a preference, but I am interested to see that.

[wesbass23]

I stand behind you on this one. While I don't know much about how the field system works, I feel like it would not be too hard to allow teams to pick which station they are at.

[DohertyBilly]

From the game manual:
5.4.4 Playoff MATCH Format
The Playoff MATCHES take place following the completion of the Qualification MATCHES and the ALLIANCE selection process. Playoff
MATCHES are played as shown in Figure 5 2, ALLIANCE One, ALLIANCE Two, etc. are abbreviate A1, A2, etc.
The higher seeded ALLIANCE will always be assigned to the Red side of the FIELD.

Additionally, ALLIANCE CAPTAINS will always be assigned to the center PLAYER STATION, the first pick will be assigned to the station to their left while they’re facing the FIELD, and the second pick will be assigned to their right while they’re facing the FIELD. If a BACKUP TEAM is in play, they will be assigned to the PLAYER STATION that was assigned to the DRIVE TEAM they’re replacing.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to switch teams around, but it's in the manual, so...

If I had to guess, I would say that is the order the FMS puts teams in when the numbers are entered, so I can see not being allowed to change it once it is established. But if you could chose who went where within, say, 10 mins of selection, it would add some strategy to the process...

[Jaywalker1711]

This is actually a rule this year. Don't know what section or number

Captain is in the middle, first pick on left, 2nd on right

I don't know why FIRST did this, but it actually adds a little bit of strategy into order of picking (especially for the 8th alliance)
Having the alliance captain in the middle allows them to easily communicate with and lead the other teams on their alliance

Personally, I like the forced layout.

[Abhishek R]

It's a rule.

I think the basis for the order is to have the captain in the middle to coordinate the alliance, and have the other two on either end, but I agree, the rule doesn't make sense because there's no way for the GDC to know the optimal station for each team.

[cgmv123]

If an alliance were to be allowed to choose their driver station assignments:

• Would they have to choose the stations in the alliance meeting and stick with them or would they be allowed to change them per match?
• If they can change per match, when would they have to commit to station assignments? (The FMS would need to be reconfigured each time and robots would have to reconnect. An alliance changing stations 4 or 5 times before a match could cause a 5+ minute delay.)
• If the opposite alliances keep changing positions to counter the position changes of the other, who gets priority to place so the match can start within a reasonable amount of time?

You can see why it's easier just to assign positions from the start. And now those positions are known from the moment the alliance is formed.

[New Lightning]

Why would the other alliance need to change their drive station positions based on the other alliance?

Second I believe that you would only need to pick and establish positions before the first match and then leave them the same way. Although, there could a rule stipulation that your position would be the same unless a different position order is presented to the head ref a certain amount of time before your next match so they have time to reconfigure the FMS ahead of time, or that you have to take a time out in order to change positions.

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by New Lightning

Why would the other alliance need to change their drive station positions based on the other alliance?

It could have a possible strategic implication. If alliances are allowed to pick station assignments, and this isn't addressed in the rules, it will come up at some point.

[orangemoore]

While I understand the desire of choosing the alliance station you drive from from the field perceptive the rule makes life much easier for the people running the FMS. I have previously been an FTAA for FTC and with 4 alliances only it gets a little hectic before a match. This includes less than half as many teams as in an FRC Elimination/Playoff Bracket.

The rule makes the configuration simple for the Field and it is clearly known so you should hopefully be able to work around it.

The field volunteers have enough to do why not make some things easy?

[Chief Hedgehog]

I would love to see FMS allow this. Although, it would creep into an already hectic time frame for those running the tournament.

Maybe in time - but 'it is a rule' doesn't mean it cannot change for next year. I could see that in the future the FMS requires the alliances to choose their alignment of the teams before Play-offs begin and will be carried through the duration of the Play-offs.

[rich2202]

It is a rule because of FMS. FMS automatically assigns the teams to positions, and configures the system to expect the right team in the right position.

If a team plugs the driver's station into the wrong position, it won't work. It has to do with the private channel the FMS provides between each DS and the robot.

For practice matches, it is possible to override team placement (filler line). For qualifications and eliminations, I don't think FMS would know what to do if the team number changed. From your perspective, it is just two teams swapping position. From FMS's perspective, it is two (or all) positions with a different team number.

It is not just a communication issue. FMS is also keeping score, so it needs to know how many points to give to which team. In Qualification matches, this is a much bigger issue since scores are tracked by Team. For eliminations, it is less of an issue, since the entire alliance gets the same score.

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by rich2202

It is a rule because of FMS. FMS automatically assigns the teams to positions, and configures the system to expect the right team in the right position.

I think the rule and the FMS assignment probably came at the same time when they tried figuring out how to assign teams to the driver stations.

Originally Posted by rich2202

For practice matches, it is possible to override team placement (filler line). For qualifications and eliminations, I don't think FMS would know what to do if the team number changed. From your perspective, it is just two teams swapping position. From FMS's perspective, it is two (or all) positions with a different team number.

I think it is still possible. My question would be how to backup teams get assigned then?

Originally Posted by rich2202

It is not just a communication issue. FMS is also keeping score, so it needs to know how many points to give to which team. In Qualification matches, this is a much bigger issue since scores are tracked by Team. For eliminations, it is less of an issue, since the entire alliance gets the same score.

This wouldn't matter in qualifications or eliminations as long as the 3 teams playing on that side are in the system they all get the same score for each match. It shouldn't have any problem at all. The only time it would be a problem would be if the team was awarded point for a match they weren't playing in.

[TitanChris]

I'm sorry I missed this in the rules...

A longer Ethernet cord would allow the teams to plug into proper FMS port. Without requiring them to be in a specific spot.

Something worth considering, in my opinion.

[MrTechCenter]

Originally Posted by TitanChris

I'm sorry I missed this in the rules...

A longer Ethernet cord would allow the teams to plug into proper FMS port. Without requiring them to be in a specific spot.

Something worth considering, in my opinion.

While this is true, you're forgetting about the team number displays that would show the wrong team number if the teams simply passed the ethernet cable over from one driver station to the other. This would make it very confusing for the FTAs and their assistants to troubleshoot if they have to.

I've been an FTAA at a regional this year, and the system is a LOT more complicated than one might think. There's a reason for everything and I don't see any reason to mess with it.