Q484/485 Regarding "Cheesecaking"

[Pauline Tasci]

Q484 and Q485, recently posted to the FRC Q and A, have some interesting implications regarding the “cheesecaking” activities that have become popular this season. Q484 seeks to clarify the definition of a team participating in a match. According to the blue box under T8:

Sending DRIVE TEAM members to the ARENA without the ROBOT is considered participating in a MATCH.

Now, Q485 seeks to clarify whether a robot that is not on the field (but is currently in the pits being modified) is inspected or not. If FIRST rules that the robot is not inspected, then an alliance would be red carded for having an alliance member participate in a match without an inspected robot. This would disallow keeping your partners off the field in order to “cheesecake” them. If no members from the cheesecaked team attend the match, the alliance is red carded as per section 5.2.2 of the rules:

If a ROBOT will not report for a QUALIFICATION or PLAYOFF MATCH, the Lead Queuer should be informed and at least one (1) member of the DRIVE TEAM should report to the FIELD for the MATCH to avoid receiving a RED CARD, with the exception of a Team that has not passed Inspection, per Rule T8.

If the cheesecaked team does participate in the match, the alliance receives a red card under T8:

A Team is only permitted to participate in a Qualification or Playoff MATCH and receive Match Points if their ROBOT has passed Inspection. VIOLATION: If prior to the start of the MATCH, the ROBOT is not eligible to participate in the MATCH. If after the start of the MATCH, the entire ALLIANCE receives a RED CARD for that MATCH.

This would also apply in qualification scenarios; if any team wishes to miss a match while making major modifications to their robot, they receive a red card regardless of what route they take.

[Nuttyman54]

I think the answer is in the rules you already quoted:

If a ROBOT will not report for a QUALIFICATION or PLAYOFF MATCH, the Lead Queuer should be informed and at least one (1) member of the DRIVE TEAM should report to the FIELD for the MATCH to avoid receiving a RED CARD, with the exception of a Team that has not passed Inspection, per Rule T8.

To me, this means that an red card would only be given if the team that would miss a match would not automatically receive a red card under T8, in which case they are permitted to not send a drive team member to the field. Whether or not this still results in a red card is not clear.

Maybe a Q&A needs to be submitted to clarify how red cards are handled in playoffs with regards to teams not reporting for a match.

[carpedav000]

Im sorry, me being a freshman in a constant search for more FIRST knowledge, what is "cheesecaking"?

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Im sorry, me being a freshman in a constant search for more FIRST knowledge, what is "cheesecaking"?

It's a term that was created very recently by team 125 coach Brandon Holley, and it basically means helping another team at your event by helping them build a new component and giving them a component for their robot (like a ramp for the HP station or a hook to get cans off the step).

Why cheesecake? Because everyone likes cheesecake.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Im sorry, me being a freshman in a constant search for more FIRST knowledge, what is "cheesecaking"?

Actually, it's a new term this year (at least CD-wide). It refers to one team providing a mechanism for another team's robot. This is most often done within an alliance, but it is also done during seeding occasionally just to help some teams be more competitive.

[carpedav000]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

It's a term that was created very recently by team 125 coach Brandon Holley, and it basically means helping another team at your event by helping them build a new component and giving them a component for their robot (like a ramp for the HP station or a hook to get cans off the step).

Why cheesecake? Because everyone likes cheesecake.

Haha, thanks. We havent had any cheesecaking in Indy yet, dont know why.

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Im sorry, me being a freshman in a constant search for more FIRST knowledge, what is "cheesecaking"?

I'm pretty sure this is where Cheesecake came from. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=81

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Haha, thanks. We havent had any cheesecaking in Indy yet, dont know why.

There has been. Teams 5188 and 1501 cheesecaked a center RC grabber on 1646 at Purdue last weekend.

[carpedav000]

What? I was watching the livestream non-stop. I guess I wasnt paying much attention at that time. By the way, you guys (5188) are amazing! Your robot (in my opinion) is easily the best that Indy has to offer.

[Jon Stratis]

The way this has historically been handled has followed the "common sense" approach:
- Every team must have passed inspection at least once before they can report to the field
- If a team has made modifications since they were last inspected, they can still send drive team members to the field to get credit for the match, but cannot send their robot.
- once a robot has been re-inspected after modifications, it is once again eligible to be placed on the field for a match.

Look at it from the intent of the rules - the intent is to ensure that every team gets their robot inspected in a timely manor, and that re-inspections happen when changes are made so the robot is safe. It's not intended to be used as a club to beat teams over the head with while they try to improve their robot.

[Ichlieberoboter]

Also being a freshman, I have not really noticed any "cheesecaking", though I have also been watching the live streams pretty much non-stop. Interesting, though. Since they'd have to get their robot inspected before they played with it, wouldn't the other team want to give them the robot component so they didn't have to constantly be getting reinspected? And then they would have that component for the remainder of their matches if they wanted to, which if it was a helpful component, I certainly would. I mean, not that that's a bad thing, gracious professionalism is important, but their seem to be a lot of catches to this "cheesecaking"...

[Jay O'Donnell]

Originally Posted by Ichlieberoboter

Also being a freshman, I have not really noticed any "cheesecaking", though I have also been watching the live streams pretty much non-stop. Interesting, though. Since they'd have to get their robot inspected before they played with it, wouldn't the other team want to give them the robot component so they didn't have to constantly be getting reinspected? And then they would have that component for the remainder of their matches if they wanted to, which if it was a helpful component, I certainly would. I mean, not that that's a bad thing, gracious professionalism is important, but their seem to be a lot of catches to this "cheesecaking"...

More often than not cheesecaking happens for eliminations, where a team would get inspected with the new component during lunch break and keep it for the rest of the day. I know 1114 even let their partners 1547 keep the ramp they gave them for the rest of the season.

[Ichlieberoboter]

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell

More often than not cheesecaking happens for eliminations, where a team would get inspected with the new component during lunch break and keep it for the rest of the day. I know 1114 even let their partners 1547 keep the ramp they gave them for the rest of the season.

Makes sense.