Yellow Tote Placement Procedure

[Jared]

We had a few questions related to the placement of the yellow totes in the beginning of the match.

First of all, I'd like to make it clear that the issue in question in no way affected our team during our competition, but I still would like to bring it up to see if it will be a problem for us in later competitions.

Our autonomous mode picks up three yellow totes in autonomous mode and swats two of the green containers out of the way. We don't need (or expect) the totes and containers to be perfectly aligned and placed, as the field tape lines are +/- 2", but we were expecting the field crew to place the totes in the center of the staging boxes and parallel with the sides of the staging zone. We have a roller intake that can handle small misalignment, (3" or so), but a 6" misalignment can't be handled.

At our first event, the field crew occasionally placed a tote or container inaccurately (container rotated 90 degrees, tote at an obvious angle). When we pointed this out to the ref/field crew, they were more than happy to line them up, and even let us straighten them sometimes.

At our second event, there was a tote and a container that were very obviously misaligned on the field, and I went out and asked for it to be straightened, and was informed that as long as the tote and container were inside the staging zone, it was okay, and the referee refused to move the tote/container.

Some random person (announcer, IIRC) walking by before the match started straightened the tote for us, so it made no difference in the end, but if the tote had remained misaligned, we would have had trouble.

To show just how inaccurate "in the staging zone" is, I came up with a worst case in SolidWorks of the field layout. The far right angled tote is placed the way the tote farthest from our robot was place, and was considered to be okay.


All the totes are fully inside the staging zones in this picture.

I was wondering if this is common practice, and if so, how often the field crew will place the totes like this. Do you think this is something we need to worry about, or was it just a one time incident?

[Sperkowsky]

we didnt have a tote auto. But our field reset team allowed us to put the yellow totes where we wanted. This years game is similar to stack attack in the sense that its a pain to setup so im sure those totes were put off centered because they were trying to not cause delays.

I recomend fixing the totes before you leave the field if possible.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

we didnt have a tote auto. But our field reset team allowed us to put the yellow totes where we wanted. This years game is similar to stack attack in the sense that its a pain to setup so im sure those totes were put off centered because they were trying to not cause delays.

I recomend fixing the totes before you leave the field if possible.

We were told we were unallowed to fix totes at any point in time. I totally understand that the field crew may be rushing, and may make a small mistake, but I think it's a little unreasonable for the success of our auto mode to be decided by how somebody happens to put down a tote, intentionally or unintentionally.

[RufflesRidge]

I don't believe any of the pictured totes are inside the staging zone. I think the tape is out which is why they don't bother specifying how they will be placed. But I could be wrong.

Proven wrong with manual quote below.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Jared

We were told we were unallowed to fix totes at any point in time. I totally understand that the field crew may be rushing, and may make a small mistake, but I think it's a little unreasonable for the success of our auto mode to be decided by how somebody happens to put down a tote, intentionally or unintentionally.

It most likely varies on what event your at. The bottom line is we cant decide certain factors. Its unfortunate but does simulate life.

what I wonder is if there should be a rule of this nature

Yellow totes must be fully manipulated pre match by the alliance themselves rather then the field reset crew.

or if they should tighten up the staging area where the totes are placed.

[cjl2625]

When we're setting up for a one tote auto, we sometimes kick the tote out of the way, position our robot, and then put the tote back.
I don't know if this is technically legal, but we haven't had any trouble.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by RufflesRidge

I don't believe any of the pictured totes are inside the staging zone. I think the tape is out which is why they don't bother specifying how they will be placed. But I could be wrong.

All totes are within the staging zone.

Originally Posted by FRC Game Manual

The STAGING ZONES include the tape, and are 4 ft. long by 1 ft. 9
in. wide.

[RufflesRidge]

Originally Posted by Jared

All totes are within the staging zone.

Touche. They should really pick either in or out for tape and stick with it.

[rich2202]

Section 3.1.4 is close to your question. While it mentions needing to move a tote to place your robot, and the tote being placed back in the same position, in practice it means you can move a tote, and as long as the tote is in the box (in the correct place and orientation), field reset people will be happy.

Like they say, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. If you quickly center a tote in its proper position (I mean less than a second as you casually walk by), then most people will ignore it. If you squat down, and start aligning the 3 yellow totes, then you will be told to stop it.

[Richard Wallace]

Reading the section cited above, you'll find this:

Originally Posted by 2015 Game Manual, Section 3.1.4

...if a DRIVE TEAM elects to leave their Yellow TOTE in the STAGING ZONE, they must leave it as positioned by the FIELD staff.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

Reading the section cited above, you'll find this:

Imo This should be changed.

But thats why no one cares bout my opinion

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Imo This should be changed.

But thats why no one cares bout my opinion

I don't have an issue with their placement in the zone being random, as it is an interesting problem that can be handled with software, or with a clever intake design. What I dislike, is lack of consistency between competitions, and even between volunteers at an individual competition. My interpretation of the purpose of the rule when I read it was that totes would be pretty close to parallel to the drivers station, and pretty close to centered front to back in the box, and the range of placement was simply to make it easier on the field reset. I did not expect to (and have not at my competition) see grossly misaligned totes, despite it being possible by the rules.

I have the same issue with this as I did with the rack in 2007 when that was by design "Randomly" positioned after robots were set up, but before autonomous starts. While I know plenty of field reset volunteers, and I don't know of any that would try to deliberately effect the game, we are too big of an organization to believe that their can't be a bad apple in the bunch. While I love the technical challenge of randomly placed objects, I don't like the idea of relying on a person to "Randomly" place something.

[JesseK]

I think the randomness would call into question the associations of the field reset crew for conflicts of interest. At higher levels of play, this could be a big deal. It's also impossible to prove/disprove that a field reset person intentionally offset a yellow tote in order to cause an autonomous to miss.

I think there should be a specific reset person on each side whose responsibility is to make sure the totes are reasonably aligned parallel to the wall. I also think that the wording of the rule should change such that the yellow totes should be in contact only with the carpet and not the tape. That way the totes can overlap the tape in the air, not need to be perfectly aligned but still provide a reasonable presumption of autonomous initial conditions. Auto scores are so low this year as it is.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

Reading the section cited above, you'll find this:

But, the Blue Box clearly gives the team the ability to temporarily move a piece in order to place a robot. There is no way, even if a team tried, that it can replace the piece EXACTLY where it was. There is also the possibility that a robot cannot be placed if the game piece is not moved (1 inch farther away from the wall, but otherwise still in the box).

So, the real world implementation is: If the moved piece is place in a valid position ("are in their designated starting positions"), it is fine.

Extrapolating a little, if a team quickly moves a game piece (RC or yellow tote, and not a landfill/step tote/RC), and the pieces "are in their designated starting positions", most field staff will not say anything.

[Wetzel]

At all three events I've attended this year (Mexico City, VCU, Greater DC), the guidance was that team members could move items but field reset must be the last person to touch/adjust/confirm placement of the totes and recycling containers.

Wetzel