Yellow Tote Placement Procedure

[bkahl]

Sticking to the yellow tote theme at Hartford, I have yet to find the rule that states that a team may only remove the yellow tote directly in front of their driver's station, and not any others. This was STRICTLY enforced Saturday, but not so much on Sunday. This was more an inconvenience in the time we were supposed to be getting out of transport config than anything, but still an issue.

From 2.3.1 in the Game Manual:

Teams may elect to move some or all of the Yellow TOTES into the ALLIANCE STATION prior to the start of the MATCH per Section 3.1.4:
MATCH Logistics.

The inconsistencies at Hartford are worrisome. I hope this is different for NEDCMP and Worlds.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by bkahl

Sticking to the yellow tote theme at Hartford, I have yet to find the rule that states that a team may only remove the yellow tote directly in front of their driver's station, and not any others. This was STRICTLY enforced Saturday, but not so much on Sunday. This was more an inconvenience in the time we were supposed to be getting out of transport config than anything, but still an issue.

From 2.3.1 in the Game Manual:

3.1.4 is very clear that it's the tote in front of their drivers' station.

That being said, it's not uncommon for an alliance to agree to remove X totes and inform the field staff of such. However, if there's disagreement in the alliance, the team whose station it is takes precedence (to the field staff).

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by EricH

3.1.4 is very clear that it's the tote in front of their drivers' station.

That being said, it's not uncommon for an alliance to agree to remove X totes and inform the field staff of such. However, if there's disagreement in the alliance, the team whose station it is takes precedence (to the field staff).

Oh wow, I completely passed over that snip-it in my quick read in the pits. Thanks!

[DinerKid]

At both Northeastern and Reading the field reset crew was happy to help us with positioning totes and recycling containers perfectly on the field (example: if it was half an inch from perfect they would adjust it half an inch, despite that fact that half an inch off is within the tolerance).

Additionally, one of our autonomous modes requires our robot to start with a recycling container in our gripper, in order to do this the RC needs to be pressed through passive fingers in order to be in range of the gripper (in teleop we accomplish this by driving the RC against a wall) however during setup of a match, we have one of our drivers sit on the RC to hold it in place, as the field crew placed it, while another driver pushes the robot, flexing the fingers around the RC as it is pushed. This allows us to position properly without ever moving the RC. Perhaps this method could work for some of the other teams out there struggling with initial positioning.

~DK

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by DinerKid

we have one of our drivers sit on the RC to hold it in place

I would have called that a G3 violation - "DRIVE TEAMS may not climb over or step on game elements"

Originally Posted by jared

That was not our experience at Hartford. When I asked the referee if he or I could adjust the position of an obviously misaligned tote for our autonomous mode, he refused.

I had a discussion with a Head Ref about centering RC's on the Step. My thought was that, as long as it is on the step, it should be played where is placed (bots have to be designed for the tolerance of the step width). He felt a reasonable amount of centering is a reasonable accommodation (avoid giving one side an advantage).

Since teams are allowed to move RC/Totes when placing their robot, I didn't care how much they moved them as long as they ended up back in the proper position (and within the 60 second robot placement limit). There were a few instances where the Tote ended up on a line, and we told the team they had to move the robot so the Tote was off the line.

[DinerKid]

Originally Posted by rich2202

I would have called that a G3 violation - "DRIVE TEAMS may not climb over or step on game elements"

By "sit" I mean "place some amount of her weight on it, in order to hold it in place"

G1-6 are listed under safety, therefore I feel as though it is a given that their intent is to keep the drive team safe. Given that she is performing this maneuver while keeping her feet on the floor and is always stable even if the RC were to collapse or miraculously disappear (therefor she is safe) I don't think this would constitute a G3 inflraction.

~DK

[MarcD79]

Well I can see there are different opinions as how/where the totes are placed. I was Field Super in Waterbury & Pioneer Valley & Field Reset in Hartford. I don't know where Techno tics were but they obviously didn't approach me. All 3 events I always placed and or verified that the tote was next to or touching the can & centered in the box at ALL 3 EVENTS! I made a lot of teams happy by verifying & with a smile to them so they knew they were within regulations. The pictures I saw earlier in the post in no way reflect any event I volunteered at. Also the Refs left it up to me to make sure they were placed correctly. I did occasionally correct the tote after a team had placed their robot so they would be valid. I never had anyone approach me questioning where I placed them. Now maybe when I had that human problem of a mother nature break they asked Scott the Ref. That may have been the time. I was told by the FIRST FTA to place the Can & tote centered in the box, not hanging over the edge. I think we did a great job keeping the field in tip top shape for all those great teams.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by MarcD79

Well I can see there are different opinions as how/where the totes are placed. I was Field Super in Waterbury & Pioneer Valley & Field Reset in Hartford. I don't know where Techno tics were but they obviously didn't approach me. All 3 events I always placed and or verified that the tote was next to or touching the can & centered in the box at ALL 3 EVENTS! I made a lot of teams happy by verifying & with a smile to them so they knew they were within regulations. The pictures I saw earlier in the post in no way reflect any event I volunteered at. Also the Refs left it up to me to make sure they were placed correctly. I did occasionally correct the tote after a team had placed their robot so they would be valid. I never had anyone approach me questioning where I placed them. Now maybe when I had that human problem of a mother nature break they asked Scott the Ref. That may have been the time. I was told by the FIRST FTA to place the Can & tote centered in the box, not hanging over the edge. I think we did a great job keeping the field in tip top shape for all those great teams.

Thanks for clarifying - If we ever have this sort of problem again, I guess we'll just try approaching somebody else on the field. I think we'll be able to find a reasonable person like you to correct any sort of accidental misalignment.

At Waterbury and Saturday at Hartford, we had no problem with tote alignment. The field crew (maybe you?) took the time to make sure that the totes were lined up nicely and checked with our other driver to make sure everything was okay before leaving the field. If there was ever a concern with alignment of the tote in our robot, or the other totes on the field, the field crew was happy to explain and help out.

On Sunday, I probably just asked the wrong person.

[MamaSpoldi]

Originally Posted by Jared

That was not our experience at Hartford. When I asked the referee if he or I could adjust the position of an obviously misaligned tote for our autonomous mode, he refused.

If we're following the word for word rules for the manual, there's nothing that says the field reset crew can't place the tote upside down on top of the recycling can either.

Personally, I don't think it's really right for the field reset crew to have the power to decide the success or failure of autonomous, which is true under the current rules.

I must say that I was not on the field so maybe we were just lucky and didn't have to ask for a tote to be straightened. Or maybe we just didn't have to ask the "wrong" field reset person.

Originally Posted by bkahl

Sticking to the yellow tote theme at Hartford, I have yet to find the rule that states that a team may only remove the yellow tote directly in front of their driver's station, and not any others. This was STRICTLY enforced Saturday, but not so much on Sunday. This was more an inconvenience in the time we were supposed to be getting out of transport config than anything, but still an issue.

The inconsistencies at Hartford are worrisome. I hope this is different for NEDCMP and Worlds.

I agree. The inconsistencies being reported here are very disconcerting. I am truly sad that others received a negative response.

[Marc S.]

As the Field Supervisor for the Ventura Regional (CAVE) I made sure that the placement was as follows:

Step 1: Place the Recycling container in the box with the bottom of the container covering tape equally on 3 sides, handles pointing towards the driver stations.

Step 2: Place the yellow totes in the box centered width wise, by eye, and touching the Recycling container.

I tried teaching most field reseters to do this so the field was as consistent as possible from match to match. Most of the time though I had to do a walk around to make sure they were lined up properly. In cases where teams were touching the Containers/Totes before the match we aligned them first, let the teams place their robots, and then realigned the elements or touched them to verify that they were placed correctly.

[cglrcng]

OK, as usual the opinions of some, are sometimes directed toward "UNPAID VOLUNTEERS" that work very hard for their money! Having just worked as a volunteer Field Repair/Reset at a successful week 5 event (still taking Advil to dull the muscle pain, & loving every minute of it and I'm nearly 60 yrs old, and just added my name to the list to volunteer at Champs too, we'll see about there later).

Please remember over the course of 3 or more days (Field Setup, and that includes setup of a huge couple hundred game pcs. setup also, as those totes are opened and stacked within each other for field shipment on a single 2 pallets plus), and that each member of the 10 member field reset team will have lifted, moved, slid, tossed & handed off, and placed & adjusted (re-adjusted often do to "the movement after initial placement" caused by others like the actual game players). Untold thousands of pounds of your precious merchandise, over the course of an event EACH, that you get to play with from seconds to minutes a match will be lifted, slid, & moved. It is a JOB, & definitely not a career you really want...So get your further education please students.

Not 1 member of those "Very Necessary Field Reset Teams" are trying to "screw" or manipulate the players or pcs. of the game. (We are only there to help you play the game, and do so "on time")...We, as a team, hurry a lot...FOR YOU! (Please do not insinuate as much to any of them, in postings or in person, here or at an event).

Our histories as FIRST volunteers, even when our teams compete against yours directly on the field in matches (most FIRST VOLUNTEERS travel w/ their teams, and yes want them to win often, may even get excited when & IF they do...Yes, we are mentors/students/ and team members also)...BUT, when we don that FIRST VOLUNTEER "T-Shirt" we then switch to the "We Work For and REPRESENT FIRST Firstly, Mode!"

Then, FAIRNESS ON THAT FIELD OF PLAY FOR ALL TEAMS ALWAYS DICTATES. My particular team no longer enters my mind (yes I also watch them compete, and still want them to win and I still cheer for them, encourage them and may even talk to them, but my personal actions on or around the field are NEVER a PART of THAT. (Until the competition is over and I get lucky enough to go run and retrieve my team shirt for any possible awards, so I again match my team in view from afar, and can again brandish the teams brand again. (That, I could not do earlier while attending as a FIRST Volunteer....You cannot serve 2 masters at the same time you see!)

But, at that time, the competition is now OVER! I can again represent MY TEAM, of which I am, but a single member.

If you did not design your particular robot auto play to "Fit that wider & longer (or narrower since the RC's don't actually fit within the taped lines in width), taped box of play" on the carpet, please don't blame the volunteers.
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Now that, "that part and parcel is outta the way"....Things the Drive Team HP Players and your team media attendees into the Arena (Entire Carpeted Area), and it's immediate surrounding concrete areas, can do to HELP the FIELD RESET CREWS to make the game run a bit more smoothly, that I personally saw & witnessed happening over the course of the event often.

I personally walked around the entire field of play nearly every match, both inside and out (w/ breaks often, so I didn't get to all 4 corners every single match played, just hoping, that others emulated what I did each time, when I wasn't present, and some Field Reset, to and including the ref's, FTA/FTAA and many others did (they all showed their appreciation during and after the event was over personally to me for going the extra mile there). I personally did notice that many did follow suit, including very kind Ref's, from the Arena sidelines or the stands, when still taking breaks & when I was not actually present within the Arena of play...And it was APPRECIATED all around). My Personal Thank's Here, to those great people! (You & I, certainly know who you are!)...They maintained real consistency in the game at that event, when my old body just cried out for a bit of relief occasionally, and it said....Just take a break.

This particular activity, added miles and miles of extra walking, to the job over the course of the weekend, just attempting to provide fairness to all 6 teams playing every match that I was personally present for and participating in.

What I did: Repair the field when necessary firstly (includes vaccuming ~Thank you to a young lady for help there too, and you know who you are, I fully APPRECIATED YOU DOING SO MORE THAN ONCE!, while others ate lunch or before the event opened for the day), re-taping, replacing broken ties on field elements and game elements, looking often at all that, that encompassed very often & constantly, etc..

Helped reset the game pc. elements (sometimes I found I could lift many pcs. each time, sometimes not, as muscles & back begin to ache and scream out in the opposite of pleasure), and all that encompassed, then a full walk if there is time inside the field, as their is plenty to check for compactness, eveness, and other myriad of adjustments and alignment, remove lots of field debris, etc. (sometimes that is cut really short if there are other very necessary repair duties), if not, then and possible -a walk around the outside of the field is necessary, if noticing any gaps in/between landfill totes etc., a simple call to the FTA, FTAA, Head Ref or any ref is necessary, so a problem can be corrected before the match is started.

Then, (while the FTA/FTAA/Ref's are readying the teams and establishing robot/drive station connections headed for the All Important "Green Light Condition", a quick Walk to all 4 corners of the arena to make sure the backfield Tote Stacks were all lined up on the 4 corners of the carpet and tightly stacked properly & evenly for all alliances playing, and the litter on both ends was also re-counted and inspected (replaced as necessary and notifying the head Ref when doing so, I was also asked each time I was present doing so, by many team members, to replace much litter (depending on whether they were a thrower ~& usually wanting only the straight ones, or a can litterer who wants mainly "the J-bent" ones). BTW IMPORTANT HERE!-Only The Head Ref can actually call for litter replacement according to a recent game update, but often I needed to direct players who were OFTEN manipulating the game pcs. before a match "to Please, please, PLEASE, stop doing so, and to question a ref about a slightly damaged pc. of litter, but fully acceptable for play under the rules), in each, and the Litter Cans are lined up in the right locations.

Now players, HOW YOU CAN HELP is printed below: (Show this to your Drivers, Coaches, HP's IMMEDIATELY Please!)

1. Please do not use the backfield player station game pcs. as tables (hands and objects off those nice Tote Stacks on the corners of the carpet please).

They are not there to support your driver station unit, camera bags, hold you up personally because you "gamed all night instead of slept properly, are tired, etc." Please don't touch them, as they are properly arranged for your playing pleasure. Once that match starts though, you can do whatever you want w/ all of them...Your job is to read the rules to decide what you can legally do with them at that point. Not mine or the rest of the re-set crews.

2. Litter cans and litter in the backfield...It is already properly arranged and counted, inspected for suitability in game play according to the rules (you should not be arranging or manipulating it, in any way). If it is in the can, taped properly, and not damaged beyond the requirements in the ruleset (look, but don't touch, or I will touch it lastly...I simply pick up all 10 and drops them back into Litter Can to ensure an even luck factor, which cures the Pre-Match team manipulation issue). Look w/ your eyes please...Then, IF you have a question, please approach a ref to ask him to inspect it, then he will get the head ref, for an actual decision on possible replacement.

If I see a problem w/ any litter first during a return to its proper bin, I will approach a ref and we get it replaced (there are no gray areas, but many questionable times w/ 20 of pcs. of litter on the field each & every match, and they are run over very often, and suffer many scrapes, bruises and bumps along the way...Poor, poor mistreated Litter). 4 different times I personally caught too many pcs. in a litter can, and always right before a match, because of simply "too many cooks are in the kitchen."

Rest assured, I visited both ends of the field every match, and am a type "A" idiot perfectionist I keep getting reminded often in life, and just wanted basic fairness to all playing the game every match. (That situation causes its own set of difficult circumstances, when every match, I am double checking the work of 9~12 or more others, and I certainly get certain looks or attitudes as direct feedback, both instantly, & later. Not that I do not trust, I just attempt to trust highly, but verify often).....Your fair gameplay is a direct result of that doublechecking (and adjusting as necessary, as a habit and routine).

A grey stack on the edges of the corner of the carpet is where those Tote Stacks belong, and the Yellow Totes, IF ONCE PLACED IN THE BOX PROPERLY, is then "IF CHOSEN TO BE REMOVED FROM THE FIELD BY THE TEAMS," need to be on the FTA/SCORERS Table side of the backfield in the white taped off box.

3. Those Yellow Totes (Yes!...Yellow Totes, and the associated RC's)...Field Reset's job (trust, but verify again here), is to put them in the taped off boxes on the proper end, within the taped lines when resetting the field (though very hard to verify from a distance through no so perfect safety glasses, since the tape matches the carpet much too closely to even see unless you are up close to them), and to check the placement after you are done moving/adjusting them, and sometimes actually touching them last, sometimes that is just accomplished by a simple eye scan of the taped lines...Is it still inside the box? Or, maybe it involves a ref call over, if it is blatently outside the box, sometimes a quarter inch adjustment or so, is all that is necessary (a job in its own right when robots are going off, coming on, teams are moving onto/about the field, and sometimes the reset team never even gets to place it there at all since there was a robot in the box (so we simply place it close by, and the teams place it after robot setup), so a simple touch is actually necessary then, to say we did do the job of placing it, before a match actually took place. (You can verify that right through the glass wall you are looking out from behind of too! Live & in person). Please question it then, and never later...You actually control when your matches start in association w/ that FTA/FTAA/Ref Crew...Certainly Not The Field Reset/Repair Crew. (We just assist in assuring that the field and game pcs. are ready for play IN ASSOCIATION W/ THEM).
_____________________
Now! YOUR JOB DRIVE TEAMS, CONCERNING YELLOW TOTES...Is to, "IF you wish to do so, take YOURS, and YOURS ONLY, off the field personally IF YOU DO NOT WISH IT IN THAT BOX (we will assist you, but, only if YOU are CLEAR ON YOUR ACTUAL INTENT"...It is not our responsibility "IF YOU FORGET TO DO SO"...So, Please do not lay that off on the hard working volunteers).

Simply remove it on your way to the drivers station, place it in the white taped area on the FTA/SCORERS Table side of the backfield in front of the Grey Tote stack. That movement, is not a field reset job....And your agreements as an alliance is "Team Strategy to decide, not a job of the Field Reset/Repair crew."

(Too many times I personally witnessed disagreements between Alliances/Team members on both ends due to this issue, On/Off/On/Off...Please make up your mind while waiting in the queing line, and be ready to make YOUR DECISION, then MAKE YOUR PERSONAL TEAM MOVE as soon as WE PLACE IT IN THE BOX..."Then just DO IT!")...Discuss this early on in your Alliance game strategy (including during Q Matches as it can be very important to all members of your Alliance), is my personal suggestion...Not, when that FTA/FTAA, ref's, other Alliance & Teams, fans, and the watching public is waiting w/ baited eyes for a match to start/begin.

Remember...Yellow Totes (Field Reset puts it in the box), YOU may adjust or remove it from the field, WE verify your adjustments both on and off the field of play, and within the Arena in the proper placement at the beginning of each match. Simple really, if everyone does their specific job.
________________
I think that about covers my 2 cents worth....Can I now get a cup of coffee if I add $1.45 and not buying it at Starbucks. (Forget that. The Volunteer Lounge has some, and that my friends are the simple perks that come w/ the job!) TY FIRST!

[cglrcng]

Adding 1 more huge thing here....Last year, same event, I was the Field Supervisor accidentally....So, This year...On Game Release Day, I wondered about the # and total weight of the game pcs., and all that the job that specific volunteer entailed, and the large associated team of Field Repair/Reset entailed...Sort of "Like a lot of Ref's. did last year before and after the season began w/ all the associated penalties that entailed"....And, I personally asked myself, "Is that something I really want to volunteer for this year?" (That is a lot of weight to lift & touch over an event you possible idiot, lots of possibilities for later laid off blame & excuses of failures there later too, you possible idiot). I was Thinking to Myself, not you!

Well, I did it, I fully enjoyed it, and sure I even complained about it (or more like my bit older muscles did)....But, I'll personally be back for more bodily punishment if you still want me to. (I'm personally stronger today because of the valuable excersize, as I work sitting down normally repairing puters)...So, it benefits my overall health to do it!

And if that benefits you, and FIRST too...All that, is just a bonus.

[cglrcng]

The short answer to your original OP question is...The one pic missing in the examples are the hundreds of times it was perfectly and legally aligned. And you stated all were legal, and not one affected your robot (No Field or alignment of game pcs. is perfect, you build in for the differences)...They also allow you Teams personell to adjust there, we just verify in or out....Then, they ask you to adjust it again before the match begins if it is out of those taped carpet areas...Arm yourself w/ the printed rules, then take that up w/ YOUR GAME REFEREES Before the match begins, or in the question box after it ends.
_________________________
Reposted from OP's posting:

To show just how inaccurate "in the staging zone" is, I came up with a worst case in SolidWorks of the field layout. The far right angled tote is placed the way the tote farthest from our robot was place, and was considered to be okay.

All the totes are fully inside the staging zones in this picture.

(My answer: Yes they all are legally inside of the box, and I personally would have asked you, if that is where you wanted it, and straightened it each time, if not....Each, and every time I noticed it).

I was wondering if this is common practice, and if so, how often the field crew will place the totes like this. Do you think this is something we need to worry about, or was it just a one time incident?
____________________

The Common Practice is to get it straight and centered inside of the correct colored taped box end on the carpet at both ends of the field, with RC's centered on the tote centerline and touching each, handles pointed the right directions. But like actual common sense..."It just isn't so common afterall."

What can go wrong, certainly can and will. Not a pun. (You have last adjustment control as long as it is inside of the tape lines, and those Ref's. assure that by their mere presence on the field of play). They are all about fairness too...Simply Put...Use them (the Refs), like the tools they really are.
_____________________
I personally asked Ref's. a few times myself, when I saw numerous team game strategies I questioned in my mind like..."Is that REALLY POSSIBLY LEGAL???" (When I saw things happen that was "intentional team or player thinking way outside of the box, or even the specific Arena or Field of Play!")

And ALL of it, led to very surprising answers & some long discussions on and off the field of play, but not any game delaying discussions ever, as some of the related answers, even surprised me too, as I previously read and re-read the rules constantly parsing the game w/ strategy questions & possibillities, reading & even suggesting many Q&A's be asked before play even began this season & since, and big discussion thread participation here on CD often over the last 2.5 + Months...(Which is why I'm not a Ref)....Ever. (I'm Simply not qualified...PERIOD is what I say & list). RULES ARE BLACK PRINTING on a WHITE background, there is no gray to me...Unless of course, it is Gray Totes in this game.

(An Example of an instant surprise: YELLOW TOTES PUSHED WAAAY OFF onto GRAY CONCRETE INTENTIONALLY OUTSIDE OF THE POSTED and rules described and carpeted ARENA during the game/matches, IT JUST DID NOT ACTUALLY EVEN COMPUTE to this foolishly logic based ADULT Human,....But, it was shown & accepted to be legal by the published rules). That student out thought me certainly. As I slinked away, I thought...He personally intentionally placed the game pcs. outside of the Arena...??? How can it possibly be ruled LEGAL by the REFS? (Not questioning the REFS here, I was questioning THE GAME...And the published RULESET I was and still am).

Well, because there is simply no rule against doing so DURING THE GAME, and all our specific job entails, is to place them back inside of the ARENA in their proper places BEFORE A MATCH BEGINS. His job (as a player), is to place it where it benefits him best & most in game strategy & game play, and to out think all the other players in association to the published rules.

The REFS jobs are to make sure those published rules are followed fairly by all...And there was no published rule against that particular action once gameplay actually began. (This old dog, was taught a new trick by a young high school student, and many more eventually, before the weekend was over! "Upsidedown & Untethered Tote Ramps" work very well as ramps too, right Joe?")

I don't want to be that instant Judge or Jury. (Their job is a tough one parsing Q&A vs. Rules & updates, official/unofficial, legal/not legal, all happening quickly during the gameplay, while there are thousands of really smart people, constantly testing the edges of said rules, looking for any legal strategy edge, to help them personally win the game). The GDC and the Refs are constantly tested in that manner, as are the RULES.

I loved another Ref's comment about those Yellow Totes sitting a full 5' outside of the Arena of Play (I did not see how they got there originally, only the final result during my usual prep walk), as he saw and witnessed my reaction from the other side of the field, my expressions, and my after game play ref questioning (this was practice day), and that I almost actually picked them up, and reset them back inside of it ~(The actual Arena carpeted area), during the game (I didn't, as I know better, but it surely crossed my mind more than once during the match, and right after, as I thought it was a Field Reset Crew mistake originally... He came over from the opposite side of the field (he could see me during the game), collared me and stated in my ear quietly...."They Just Found A Legal way to CHEAT LEGALLY, AND CHEAT THE GAME LEGALLY, that you didn't actually think of first, and you don't yet understand that fact, then he told me it happened earlier that day on the opposite end of the field, they discussed it as refs together in a usual pow-wow, and the results actually surprised him too!....And it is, why we all love FIRST! AMIRight?"

He was of course, absolutely right. And I walked away still shaking my head....It still just didn't compute (and it still doesn't), and I'm all about computers. It is, what I do.

Moral of the story...Keep testing the rules, and you too just may find an edge nobody else has even thought of yet students/mentors. I'm not imparting any secrets, as the actual gameplay is well documented in video and fully released by now, and witnessed live and in person by many.