Future First Championship News

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by efoote868

Right, but assigning all 1st place teams to the premier event will not get to 400 teams, so the supplemental teams can be assigned based on geography.

Point is that details are not set in stone, and I trust Frank to do right by us.

No. No, no, no, no. First, congrats on disincentivizing 1st seeds picking 2nd seeds. 2nd seed sure would think twice about accepting if winning meant they'd only go to the Loser's Championship. Second, yes, you really would be creating a Loser's Championship. Your whole purpose is to create a "real" Champs with all the "good" teams, and, well, that other Champs with all those other teams. Two geographically segregated Champs may or may not be a good idea, but I'm pretty sure a "premier" Champs and "that other" Champs is a terrible one for the health of the community.

[Dunngeon]

I'd like to bring up two points,

The first,

Having more tiers of events isn't a good solution, in my opnion it's going to

• Add Cost
• Relegate poorer teams to lower tiers of competition, see 2550 (forced to decline DCMP in 2014, and likely worlds this year, despite being in the top 50 single event OPR this year)
• More travel time
• More School missed (We want FRC students in college right?)
• Likely more mentor/student/volunteer burnout

I know personally, our team would fold if another level was added, and we have a larger budget than a lot of teams


The second is,

As a graduating senior, I'm starting to look towards my future involvement with FRC. After the 2013 and 2014 games, I was pretty excited to be able to mentor in the future. 2015 has been a letdown year compared to the previous, but it honestly hasn't been as bad as I was expecting. In fact, I've enjoyed it quite a bit more than I thought I would. I was excited to finally be able to give back to a program that has done so much for me, but then this announcement came. I know I'm no where near the time investment of many members of Chiefdelphi, but this proposed change makes me question even wanting to give time to this program. FRC's attraction IS the competition. The drive to be the best team and provide the best experience for students is what propels nearly every team I've encountered forward.

To take away that competition at the highest level is akin to castrating a bull, all of the bravado but with none of the fire.

Here's to hoping we're all very wrong indeed...

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Marc S.

With all the hate against having 2 Championships, I wonder if FIRST will actually consider taking this back.

In my opinion, the answer should be this: Remove regional competitions, transfer everyone over to the District system. This way we could have district championship events (set up to be smaller versions of the current cmp) with the top teams still earning a spot at the World Championship. This would make the champs experience far more obtainable for a lot more teams without removing the prestige of the World championship top tier stage.

I think with the venues already booked, they are locked in.

I agree with you though that moving everyone to districts and district championships feeding into one Championship would have been better in terms of travel distance, cost, and overall experience/competition/inspiration factors.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

I'd like to bring up two points,

The first,

Having more tiers of events isn't a good solution, it's going to

• Add Cost
• More travel time
• More School missed (We want FRC students in college right?)
• Likely more mentor/student/volunteer burnout

I know personally, our team would fold if another level was added.


The second is,

As a graduating senior, I'm starting to look towards my future involvement with FRC. After the 2013 and 2014 games, I was pretty excited to be able to mentor in the future. 2015 has been a letdown year compared to the previous, but it honestly hasn't been as bad as I was expecting. In fact, I've enjoyed it quite a bit more than I thought I would. I was excited to finally be able to give back to a program that has done so much for me, but then this announcement came. I know I'm no where near the time investment of many members of Chiefdelphi, but this proposed change makes me question even wanting to give time to this program. FRC's attraction IS the competition. The drive to be the best team and provide the best experience for students is what propels nearly every team I've encountered forward.

To take away that competition at the highest level is akin to castrating a bull, all of the bravado but with none of the fire...

You're in a dsitrict, you wouldnt see another level. Non-district regions would have another level added; District Championship ~ Super-Regionals.

[bscharles]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs.

Okay, I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, because I work and I can't spend all afternoon keeping track of this, so forgive me if I'm not up to the minute on the debate. You can all mark me down as in favor of the change. Here's some comments:

1. Can we please try to be adults about this? Calling HQ enmasse and harrassing staffers there seems childish. Especially on Thursday of district champs. Especially when people are trying to work out actual problems for getting to the 2015 Champs. HQ isn't going to change this policy over a single day of CD exploding. You may as well settle in for a long fight if you want to fight this. Meanwhile, stop causing problems for normal teams.
2. No one is suggesting giving out awards in the KoP or trophies for participating in Champs. Suggesting FRC is moving to that is childish, stop. If you really think having two best in the world alliances instead of one is equivalent to participation trophies, I invite you to congratulate the Champs Finalists on their participation trophies.
3. Really, complaining about two world champions not being champions is unpersuasive to me in general. MLB has the NL and AL Championships and then proceeds to a World Series that only involves US teams + the occasional Canadian team. Not-actually-world-championships are a time honored tradition in sports. If you think this will confuse the general public, you may need to get out more.
4. It's laughable to declare that Champs was already deciding the top 3 teams in the world currently anyways, due to divisions. Einstein typically doesn't even have the top 4 alliances on it thanks to some divisions being packed.
5. We already have multiple EI winners at Champs. I'm finding it difficult to believe that WFA winners and Chairman's winners are going to feel cheated because someone else is recognized for extreme excellence in the same year. Petulantly whining that now you're not the absolute best at spreading the message seems out of character.
6. Champs is already pretty darned elite. About 33% of teams at Lone Star have EVER been to Champs before this year. I suspect this is fairly representative. You want to complain about not seeing all your favorite inspiring teams at Houston Champs? What about the 66% of FRC teams that haven't EVER seen these teams?
7. OTOH, Champs is already watered down. Waitlist teams, 2nd picks. 2nd pick wildcards. Are we really pretending that Champs is the absolute best of the best? Super Regionals may have gotten it closer, but you'd still have 2nd picks riding tailcoats in.

Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.

I think you summed it up pretty well Kevin. My initial reaction was that two championships would dilute the feeling, but after seeing various reactions and thinking about this change more, I think it is overall a positive change for FIRST. When I look back at my time as a student in FRC, having the ability to go to championships on the waitlist was inspiring in so many ways, not only because of the atmosphere, but also being part of the competition. And it was fun to play with some of the best teams in the world, but in no way did it have to be with all of them. I understand where people are coming from in saying that it may further dilute the top tier competition, and I agree to an extend.

However, I think this change is a step in the right direction to get more students involved while maintaining a high level and respectable program

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Seriously? Have we actually stooped to harrassing some poor phone staffers at HQ and laughing about it? You guys do realize that FIRST has more programs than just FRC, right? And that not everyone at HQ is an ex-FIRSTer? I realize that in your bubble, 254 and 1114 are world famous and everyone should know them, but that's simply not true. I guarantee you I can find veteran FRC teams that have never heard of either of those teams. You know why? Cause they've never been to Champs.

While I actually agree with most of your points, I get frustrated when people assume that just because I'm from 148 I don't understand "programatic issues" which apply to all teams, including teams not like my own. I assume Cory shares this frustration, and perhaps you shouldn't "put that on him" without talking to him.

To imply any knowledge of where Cory's head is at, to imply he has blind spots about aspects of the program implies a level of familiarity with his thinking that is probably inappropriate.

"You don't know him, why are you acting like you do?"

[KeeganP]

Quick question, hypothetical scenario:

We just won the 2017 week 1 regional event, and get to go to championships.

What venue are we going to?
If you say, "oh, you're closer to Detroit, you'll be there!" but then they have too many teams that live close to Detroit going, would we not be moved to Houston?
So, can we reserve hotels yet, or do we need to wait to book hotels, flights, food, etc. until a week out, when everything is far more expensive?

Not trying to be negative, just ask a real question.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

The other thing we ought to remember is that attending the Championship is insanely expensive. Even if FIRST made registration free, it would be insanely expensive and many teams would never be able to raise that kind of money to spend on airplane tickets and hotels, when they could better spend that money running a sustainable competitive robotics team. We can serve this 66% at a significantly lower cost with District Championships or their equivalent. You can get 90% of the inspiration for 20% of the cost.

District Champs are cheaper for teams to attend, but they're tied to the district system. You're not going if you're not good enough, so there's teams that might want/need the inspiration/workshops/etc. of Champs that won't get it cause now you can't waitlist into DCMP or CMP.

Also, I think you have your percentage or noun wrong. You can get 80%-90% of the competition of Champs at MSC, but I'm much less sure about the inspiration. I was only at MSC for a brief bit, but I'm pretty sure it's lacking in spectacle and grandeur compared to Champs. Some students are going to be more inspired by beign part of the big show celebrating this engineering competition than seeing the competition played at the highest level.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

The other thing we ought to remember is that attending the Championship is insanely expensive. Even if FIRST made registration free, it would be insanely expensive and many teams would never be able to raise that kind of money to spend on airplane tickets and hotels, when they could better spend that money running a sustainable competitive robotics team. We can serve this 66% at a significantly lower cost with District Championships or their equivalent. You can get 90% of the inspiration for 20% of the cost.

It will never happen, but I'd love to be wrong on this.

I think it remains to be seen just how "different" the costs will be for teams in the next several years with all of these major changes. I just hope we can afford those changes.

[Drakxii]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Really though, it all comes down to the teams for me. I see a ton of people in here declaring how inspiring Champs is, how great it is to see all these elite teams. And 66% of Lone Star teams have ever had that experience. I suspect Frank and those behind this decision might be a little more concerned about inspiring that 66% than the top 5% of teams splitting hairs over who's the #1 all-time greatest ever in the world this year.

And this system fixes it how? More waitlist slots? If you want to help the 66% of team at lone star, you need to push for districts in Texas as you don't get out of Lone Star without 118, 624, or the visiting super team's help. State championships gives lower level team something to aim at that doesn't involve having to beat the super Texas teams or be cheesecaked by them.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by dodar

You're in a dsitrict, you wouldnt see another level. Non-district regions would have another level added; District Championship ~ Super-Regionals.

Yes, I am. Teams in districts have the luxury of competing in 3 events for the price of 2. My point about my team paying 4 registrations was directed towards the split CMP or DCMP -> Super Regional that some were suggesting earlier in the thread. I agree that DCMP should equal a Super Regional.

[Walter Deitzler]

My thoughts on this whole situation, as someone who has attended the last 5 world championships and has learned something at all of them. Sorry in advance for any grammatical errors, writing is not my strong suit..

As an excited 8th grader starting FIRST 5 years ago, I would never have though that I would feel relieved to be leaving the program, but now, as a senior, I am disappointed by what FIRST is doing to the program. I have attended the FIRST championship every year since 2010 and each and every year has been helpful in either inspiring me, or making me better at FRC/engineering in general. This is a look at each year I have gone, how it influenced me, and why we need a 1 championship system (based on my experiences that year).

In 2010, The year before I started, my dad and I took a road trip from St. Louis to visit my cousin's team (future Hall of Fame 1538) in Atlanta to watch them compete. I was in complete awe of many of the teams there. I got to meet 1986's guitar hero robot, 1538 showed their 10 wheel drive train to me, and let me run the controls (while it was off the ground, of course). I had premier seating for the finals, not too high up, and pretty close to the center. After coming home from this, I was an inspired little 7th grader, paving the way for my years to come. I was not sure who exactly the "big teams" were at the time, but I did not have to. With everyone being in that stadium, a simple walk around the pits showed me the best robots in the WORLD, not just from the area. I did not have to know who was the best to see some pretty sick robots. With a dual championships, a person who is knowledgeable can Google their favorite robots, but a spectator who has no idea is missing out on (and will not Google the great teams they are missing) will surely not have quite the same inspiring experience as if they attended a championship with every powerhouse team.

8th grade year I joined the local high school team (the love of my life, team 3397) as soon as I turned 15. This happened to be the year that we won St. Louis regional and went to participate in World Championships. We had a blast on the Galileo division, even being able to compete in the qualification match against 254 and 111 (ever wondered what being inspired by being destroyed feels like? Here is a video of the match. We are the robot with the awkward PVC arm) Now, in a duel system, there is no way we would have gotten to participate with these two teams. 111 would most likely have gone to Detroit, and 254 down to Houston. Those two teams and that match were my first eye openers to what real robotics teams could accomplish. The more these top level teams are split up, the less experiences like this one will happen, and, looking back as a senior, these experiences NEED to happen. We lose that match horribly, but just being against those teams was huge for us.

2012, my 9th grade year, I took time off of school to visit world championships, because, while my team had not made it, I live 10 minutes form the dome and could not miss the opportunity to go on down. This was a year of learning. I spent hours in the pits, taking photos and notes of pretty much every robot there. Here is the album for anyone interested. All of the team's I met there? All of the information I learned helped my team move vastly foreward. While in the previous years we had only used PVC and woods, mentors and students from all over talked to me about gaining sponsorships and working with metal. I talked to teams from Michigan about sheet metal and teams from California about welding box tubing. Every region has their thing, and bringing all the regions together at 1 championship lets everyone see what the other regions are doing, past the 360p regional streams and low quality "teaser" pictures. If you are a team in the south, the only way you will get a close look at the robots from the north will be through those streams and photos. Trust me, a good, up close look is always 10x better and much, much more informative.

Alright, onto 2013, this year is a big one. Again, my tam did not make it, so I went on my own. It was my first year attending Karthik's Seminar at championships. I learned a lot from that, it was great, and will be something that only the northern teams will get to see live (although, I will be honest, you can get the same experience by watching the stream, unless you have questions, then you are out of luck.) The real great thing that year? Well, I got to hang out with team #610 that whole weekend. Starting Thursday, I was sitting with 1114 (I had no friends attending, so I just sat with them because there was an open spot). Their team started coming in though, so I started to move away, not wanting to have to split them up at my behalf. Well, Edwin from 610 saw me leave and offered me a spot with them. Soon I met the rest of their team, made really good friends with one of their seniors, Adam Scott, and he let me sit with him the rest of the competition. Yes, that includes when they beat 118/1114 and when they were winning Einstein. I can assume you all can imagine why this was inspiring, so I will skip over that. A single world championship is important due to the fact that it allows you to meet people from cultures all over the world. Every culture that makes it to worlds? You have the chance to interact and learn about each of those cultures. At a dual championship system, the north will not get the chance to learn about those from, say, Mexico and Brazil, while the south will not get to learn about Canada and, say, the Europeans. It is wonderful to get to interact with so many people in so many places, and having less of those to interact with definitely diminishes the experience.

Finally, 2014, the most recent year I attending. I do not have much to say here, just that sponsors love the whole world aspect of championships. I was giving the engineers from my father's company a tour of different teams and robot at championships. At the end of the day, they were talking about only two of the 10 teams that I showed them. These two teams? 1114 and 254. They did not even care about anyone else, just these guys, who, at a dual championships, would not even be attending the same event. The sponsors who go are constantly impressed by teams from all over the globe at champions, not just the teams form the local region. If we want these sponsors to keep being impressed, we need to keep everyone in the same location so that the people doing the funding can see the best robots from all over the world, not just from one region.

TL;DR: Dual championships is a bad idea because it inspires less, has less opportunity for lower tier teams to actually compete against the "best of the best", prevents a good deal of cultural interaction, and will not allow sponsors to see the best of the world, even though that is what they like to see.

Thanks for reading.

[rhinobot]

Here's my $0.02

It would have been cool of FIRST to ask what we thought before taking drastic measures like this....and I tried to see this the way FIRST is, but I cant, this is ridiculous.

FIRST has been going downhill, ever since they stopped allowing Grade 12's to compete for Dean's List and removed robot contact (This game has grown on me however, the can race is super fun to watch. Not hating on Recycle Rush). Now they want to take the Competition out of FIRST Robotics Competition.

A quote my old team always used to use was "Winning isn't everything, wanting to win is". You cant strive to be the best if you know you never can be, no matter how hard you try.

The goal is to inspire the kids and help promote STEM in them. You cant do that by taking away the drive. If you don't teach the kids to want to do better in robotics (and then life) then how are they ever going to succeed? Everyone can't be the best, life's not like that. They can however, try as hard as they possibly can, then go home happy with everything they have accomplished that season...and strive to be better next season. When they work super hard and finally make it to champs, they will know what success feels like.

Its been said before but the competition is what brings people to FIRST. I personally do not like what FIRST is becoming. Don't get me wrong, change is great....but the cons of this change greatly outweigh the pros. However I would love to be proven wrong. At the end of the day, if the kids are inspired and want to do better (win or lose) then its a good day, I just don't want them to lose the spark.

My views do not in any way represent my team. They are uniquely my own.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by dlavery

I suspect that the full, complete extent of this story has yet to be revealed.

That's good. Unless it's bad.

The timing seems odd to tell teams a partial story right at the point in the season when we are most burnt out. Canburglar prototypes make good pitchforks and torches in a pinch.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by JVN

While I actually agree with most of your points, I get frustrated when people assume that just because I'm from 148 I don't understand "programatic issues" which apply to all teams, including teams not like my own. I assume Cory shares this frustration, and perhaps you shouldn't "put that on him" without talking to him.

To imply any knowledge of where Cory's head is at, to imply he has blind spots about aspects of the program implies a level of familiarity with his thinking that is probably inappropriate.

"You don't know him, why are you acting like you do?"

Noted, and chastened. I retract the implication that Cory et. al. have said blind spots, assume everyone must know about 254, etc. I'll edit the post to reflect that better.

I'm leaving my frustration at harrassing HQ staffers, however. And I'm curious what Cory finds "sadly unsurprising" about an HQ staffer never having been to a competition or never having heard of 254 or 1114.