Future First Championship News

[Greg Needel]

I would encourage everyone to take a couple of deep breaths here. The announcement caught us all off guard and the implications of it are shocking at first glace. I personally had the same gut reaction as many of you and still have many of those feelings. That being said, these changes wont come about until the 2017 season.

There are some things that I am sure FIRST can't change at this point (locations and dates), but they admitted that lots of other details are still being worked out. Lets not jump to any conclusions as I am sure more to this development will be announced in the near future, and with enough constructive feedback FIRST may re-consider some specific details or at least explain the reasoning behind some of the decisions.

Personally I am going to focus on the upcoming championship (two weeks away! ) and wait for more information. The world is not all doom and gloom, and on our worst days we still get to play with robots, even if there are 8 champions instead of 4.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by efoote868

Excited that they get to compete in another FIRST sponsored event, that they would not have been able to otherwise due to limited space at the championship event.

Congratulations Oakland Raiders on a wonderful regular season, you now get to compete in the 2nd NFL playoffs with the NFL-Europe teams.

I doubt anyone associated with them or their fans would be as excited.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

District Champs are cheaper for teams to attend, but they're tied to the district system. You're not going if you're not good enough, so there's teams that might want/need the inspiration/workshops/etc. of Champs that won't get it cause now you can't waitlist into DCMP or CMP.

Also, I think you have your percentage or noun wrong. You can get 80%-90% of the competition of Champs at MSC, but I'm much less sure about the inspiration. I was only at MSC for a brief bit, but I'm pretty sure it's lacking in spectacle and grandeur compared to Champs. Some students are going to be more inspired by beign part of the big show celebrating this engineering competition than seeing the competition played at the highest level.

I have seen it work wonders on our students, mentors, and parents over the last two years.

If you're not good enough, I don't think the Championship or the DCMP is very inspiring either. It's no fun to get blown out of the water every match. In my experience, people on the team start complaining about how the schedule is rigged, or how everyone else has "cheated" in some way. Your mileage may vary.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by dodar

Congratulations Oakland Raiders on a wonderful regular season, you now get to compete in the 2nd NFL playoffs with the NFL-Europe teams.

I doubt anyone associated with them or their fans would be as excited.

This is quite literally how the Europa League works in European soccer. Finish in one of the top 4 spots in your division? You go to the Champions League (top level cup competition). The next two spots? Europa League. Both competitions are taken fairly seriously, and at the end there is a match between the champions of the two (The European Super Cup).

Not saying that it is necessarily the right thing to do for FRC, but there is precedent.

[brandon.cottrell]

So the 2016 champions, are they going to be the last "World" Champions, sorta in the same way that 217, 469 and 440 were the last Detroit Regional Champions? What's the labeling on this?

Also this reminds me of my comments on the thread for when they made most of the awards division level. How do we explain to our school that we were the "Houston Championship Tesla Division Imagery Award Winners". Really rolls off the tongue. Also now it's not 3 other teams that also won the division level award, and now it's not even 7 other teams that won the award. It's 15. Still prestigious, but less valuable. : /

[Orthofort]

I've watched the drama unfold today and have been afraid to post since my opinion doesn't seem to lie with the majority, but here goes:

I understand the extreme disappointment that comes from the lack of a singular winning alliance, or a singular winning CCA, and I won't fight that point in particular.

However I do think we need to take a step back and view FIRST as a whole, or even just FRC as a whole. The portion of obsessed people that frequent CD only represents a small part of the people involved with the program. There are many, many people who dedicate their lives come build season, but only to their team, they don't necessarily follow FRC as a whole and keep up with all the top teams. Many of these people probably couldn't even name last year's winners.

I know many of the people on my team in particular only have even heard of 254 or 1114 if I've showed them videos, raved about their robots to them, etc. They simply aren't in our region, and they only see FRC at the competitions we go to, they don't spend nights on CD or watch other streams, but their just as dedicated to FRC and our team as anyone else is.

These people form a vast majority of the population of FIRST, heck I'd bet the majority of people in FIRST haven't even heard of CD. These people in general would be incredibly excited at this news. I know that once people on my team found out the news today they were ecstatic, because to be honest, they don't care whether champs crowns a single victor, they just love the extra opportunities to compete with a higher level of play.

Now this isn't to discredit the people on those teams like 254 and 1114, who reasonably are angry at this. I know if I were on one of those elite teams, my reaction probably would have been very different. And a significant part of the FRC-obsessed piece of me is extremely disappointed that this was FIRST's solution to the problem.

In no way was this the best solution to the problem in my opinion, I think expanding the 3-tiered system of districts -> regionals -> champs would have been the best solution, and I personally am frustrated with their secrecy before dumping this out of nowhere.

However, we have to understand that this does appeal to the larger majority of FIRST that isn't necessarily represented here on CD.

[KelliV]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

Not saying that it is necessarily the right thing to do for FRC, but there is precedent.

Several orgs do it that way. It's great.

Competitive Cheerleading (which I have coached for 14 years now) does the same thing, with NCA/UCA/The Cheerleading Worlds. Place at the top of those and you get invited to The Champions League. Top 15 teams are filmed and then it is shown at AMC Theaters across the country.

Cheerleading also holds an invitational championships at many levels, place well at the invitational and you get a bid to the full championships the next week. The invitational has the same rules/venue/experience, it is just a different level of competition. It allows those who just missed champs for whatever reason a chance to work their way up to the top.

[artK]

This will not bode well for the future of FIRST if the information we have is close to complete. As of right now, it looks like the Championshplit will be the status quo for the years listed.

By taking the championship, one of the most inspiring things in FIRST, and cutting it in half, they have cut the inspiration in half, then removed sizable fractions from both, since so much inspiration comes from competing against the best. Did they not only remove the C from FR_, but also shrink the I from FiRST?

A number of teams, some of the best teams, go into the build season with the goal: "Win the World Championship". A number of people (myself included) go into the season with this goal. This change creates not only an existential crisis for FIRST HQ, but also for a number of teams (many of whom have spoken today), and these people. I took the year off from FIRST to focus on my studies and the rest of my life, in hopes of returning and achieving greater success with a new team, but with the Championship gone, I may not return at all.

[George Nishimura]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I understand that your whole point is to segregate all the ultra-competitive teams into one of the Champs. While this theoretically solves the problem of defining the "true" world champ, it seems to exacerbate most other problems people have.

The idea prioritizes the prestige and competitiveness of each event over travel costs. It definitely has its flaws, but it appeals to people like me who are motivated by the competitive side of FRC.

Namely, it cuts off half of the champs population from ALL the elite teams

In the same way championship(s) cuts off 75% of all teams from the "elite" teams. If separation was undesirable, two championships was not the right idea. There is always some sort of cut-off.

while maintaining all the logistical issues of two Champs.

The original source of the suggestion (I believe) was made after accepting that two championship events is unavoidable, as the venues are booked in advance.

And since you've decided the premier event is the one that really counts for world champs, how is everyone at the other event supposed to feel?

Excited to meet and play with other amazing robots, and proud of their achievement to make it to a championship?

let's just all agree that IRI is the definitive world championship. I'm pretty sure most people think that already anyways.

If that's not facetious, it's unfortunately quite an insular view. IRI is an off-season tournament in the middle of July, with very little prestige outside of a cluster within the FRC community. People on CD are usually clued in, but I'd bet many, if not most teams, have never heard of IRI, nor regard it as "world championship". Let alone sponsors, or administrators and parents who may have to fund another trip, or disrupt summer vacations, in order to allow students to attend.

The concept of having divisions is not new: for example, it exists in the sport I play (Ultimate Frisbee*) where we have Div I Nationals (top 16) and Div II Nationals (17-32).

We only made it to Div II this year: are we disappointed? Yes. Will we take Div II seriously? Absolutely, we want to win it**

*UK university
**disclaimer - I'm actually going to St. Louis instead of going to Nationals.

[Alyssa]

I am particularly concerned about all the comments (not even just comments on this thread, comments on Facebook or personal conversations) about students only being inspired IF they get to attend Champs, and that being the reason that having 2 Champs where more teams get to attend is a good thing.

I was personally inspired by FRC my freshman year in late 2012, watching an off-season competition. I also attended Champs the following year in St. Louis to play Ultimate Ascent. I also attended Champs last year to play Areal Assist, and my team and I set a world record. This year, we did not qualify. I will not be attending Champs this season. But I can sure as hell tell you that not qualifying, having our season end so early, $@#$@#$@#$@#, has it set a fire underneath me to qualify next year. I wanted to see robots like 254, 1114, I wanted to compete. Kids will be inspired weather or not they go to Champs, they will have something to work towards if there is a Championships.

However, diving Champs into two events, hoping to give more kids the ability to attend? I want to know that I have earned my spot at Champs, and I want to compete with some of the best teams in the world and learn from them. I want to have something to work for. Imagine a Championships where you don't get to see your favorite robots win or lose, or imagine a year where 1114 wins Detroit and 254 wins Houston...imagine how incomplete that competition would be.

Please, if you agree with anything that I'm saying or that others have said, do something! Email, call FIRST. They have listened to us before, very recently in fact, because of our complaints and concerns (cheesecaking). Lets give FIRST the benefit of the doubt and give them our concerns, hopefully they'll listen.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by dodar

Congratulations Oakland Raiders on a wonderful regular season, you now get to compete in the 2nd NFL playoffs with the NFL-Europe teams.

I doubt anyone associated with them or their fans would be as excited.

If you have a pessimistic view about it, sure. But if all you wanted was for your team/students to extend the season and compete officially one more time it would be wonderful.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by efoote868

If you have a pessimistic view about it, sure. But if all you wanted was for your team/students to extend the season and compete officially one more time it would be wonderful.

I understand that. So then lets compare "extended season." Teams can have seniors compete one last time at post-season events. Example comparison: Panther Prowl vs 2015 World Championship. Which would you think would be the more inspiring event?

Its not a pessimistic view, its a realistic one.

[evand4567]

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by dodar

I understand that. So then lets compare "extended season." Teams can have seniors compete one last time at post-season events. Example comparison: Panther Prowl vs 2015 World Championship. Which would you think would be the more inspiring event?

Its not a pessimistic view, its a realistic one.

Off season events by definition are not official FIRST events; which means there is no chance at an official award and that teams do not approach them in the same way. Even at the most highly esteemed IRI, quite a few teams will not compete with their regular season drive team (even if they haven't graduated, they like to identify potential new drivers), which means that as good as that event is, it is not as competitive as it could be.

[Steve Howland]

Phew! This is a long thread.

The main grievances, from what I can tell, are:

1. Teams were not given a fair opportunity to provide input
2. This removes the opportunity to see the best teams, teams from around the world, and friends in the FIRST community all in one place
3. There are multiple champions, so none of them is the “real” champion
4. The idea of attending a Championship event is cheapened because there are two of them
5. FIRST tells you which event you’re going to, and it is based on geography
6. Travel costs and distances are not significantly lower for many teams (and increase for some)
7. Team quality at the championship events may be lower
8. Volunteer burn-out for those who try to attend both
9. Possible issues with sponsors/exhibitors who now have to attend 2 championships or select one

What are the positives?

1. Thousands more students at all age levels get to attend
2. Travel distances and costs are indeed lower for many teams
3. Economic benefit to the cities of Detroit and Houston
4. FIRST will become more prominent in these cities
5. More award winners at the highest level

And what don’t we know yet?

1. Will another Championship be added in the near future? (California? Virginia?)
2. Will a “super-championship” be added at a higher level?
3. Are there other things FIRST has planned but cannot yet announce?

If you think the negatives outweigh the positives, you have options.

• Email, call, tweet, comment, or facebook post to FIRST. An email address was provided: customerservice@usfirst.org. Politely explain your concerns. They won’t be answered immediately, but they have asked for your input so you may as well provide it. Maybe it’s not too late to change things. Or maybe with time and some more information, the community will start to sway more towards agreeing with, or at least understanding the decision.
• Go with it. Vent and discuss on CD, but understand that the conversation here will not be read by many people and is unlikely to change things.
• Boycott Championships. Have your lead mentor write a letter explaining to FIRST that beginning in 2017 you will not attend a championship event if you qualify, because you want to preserve the integrity and culture of the single World Championships.

(Please note that I am not advocating for any particular option)