Future First Championship News

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

555 posts and we could have done more! Let's see if we get some official dialogue tomorrow.

What's crazy to me is that, for once, the majority of people posting here actually seem to agree with each other.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

What's crazy to me is that, for once, the majority of people posting here actually seem to agree with each other.

I haven't been around the block that long but the community has never gone full throttle like this. Also reps from three of the biggest and oldest and HoF/F&S team centers in FIRST have been at competition. I can only imagine what is going through the heads of those in the Mid Atlantic, Michigan, and New England brain trusts.

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I haven't been around the block that long but the community has never gone full throttle like this. Also reps from three of the biggest and oldest and HoF/F&S team centers in FIRST have been at competition. I can only imagine what is going through the heads of those in the Mid Atlantic, Michigan, and New England brain trusts.

Which championship will you be slicing oranges at?

[Kevin Kolodziej]

[sarcasm] If the games continue to be like Recycle Rush, two Championships makes total sense - each Championship only needs half of each playing field! Houston can be Red, and Detroit can be Blue, and the screens can show the feed from the other event![/sarcasm]

I do not like this.

But if we're looking for constructive suggestions, maybe FIRST can at least find ways to send the proper amount of teams from each event to these events. DCMPs send a % of teams equal to the % in the district - regional events should do the same. A 60 team event should be sending more than a 30 team event. Why not use the same district point structure to determine who the top % of teams are at a given event? Use the smallest event as your standard (if a 30 team event still sends 3 winners, EI, CA, and RAS, that's 20%..by comparison a 60 team event would then send those 6 that earn it plus another 6 that qualify based on points).

Here's something that really bothers me about these plans though:

For the Houston Championship, Opening Ceremonies will be held in the Toyota Center, home of the Houston Rockets. Competition matches for all programs will be held in the George R. Brown Convention Center, followed by Closing Ceremonies in Minute Maid Park, home of the Houston Astros, which has a retractable roof.
For the Detroit Championship, Opening and Closing Ceremonies will be held in Ford Field, an enclosed domed stadium, which is home to the Detroit Lions. Competition matches for all programs will be held in Cobo Center.

The competition isn't even in the stadiums! The most impressive part of the Championship in its current form is getting to play in a huge stadium! Anyone who played on the pit fields in 2011 knows how much it sucked - now everyone gets that wonderfully uninspiring experience.

My last rant for the evening: If the purpose of two events is to allow more teams to get the championship experience, are both events going to have the same speakers, same ceremonies, same special guests, same entertainment?

[jman4747]

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli

Doing what it takes to win is the technical challenge for many of us. The bar is raised every year thanks to these teams. I'll stick to the competition where they go, because in the process of trying to win, we'll be in a "technical challenge" of our own and we'll end up learning a lot on the way.

This seems to suggest that half of the world is not very competative. It also assumes no one will rise to the challenge presented by who is at the top of the region and that no new powerhouses will ever spring up. And when I say technical I mean the engineering of the robot. Winning is a function of that, driver training, scouting, strategy, co-op, luck, etc. I'm not following someone because they can't have their undisputed winner belt.

[RonAyyyyyyyy]

just curious, what is a "flex event" as stated on the "First's Vision" link?

Also, I am not a fan of this change at all either. I like the super regional idea a lot more.

[tStano]

I'm proud of myself for reading the whole thread before posting. I'm not sure how much of the thread I actually internalized, but seeing as its growing at levels almost exceeding that of game hint threads, at least I made it through. Those on CD sure do hold their opinions very close.

I am a senior on my team, and have been a member since 2012. My team made it to championships in 2013 on chairmans, and that experience was very transformational for me. It created that thirst to be the best, to put in countless extra hours, especially this year, when I wanted to return. My team didn't make it back, but thats beside the point. I can't pinpoint exactly what about world championships was so inspiring to me, the sea of hormones at roboprom, the intense competition, the people like me, the antics at the hotel. There are things in a championship event that are beyond the competition that probably still would have inspired me, but thats not really my problem with this decision.

What bothers me most about it is that they didn't talk to teams about it beforehand, y'know, before contracts were signed, especially such long contracts. I could see trying it out for a year and seeing if it works out. I understand details still need to be worked out, but huge decisions have been made without any community involvement. Frank has been doing such a great job being transparent with much of FIRST's inner workings, but this seems to have been a major slipup. Its placement right before current champs and during many DCMPs seems an attempt to slip it under the radar. I don't understand FIRST finances, and I understand I can look them up, but whenever I think about it, I can never figure out where the money goes.

There was community support behind the super-regional model posted here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...chmentid=18804 and I don't understand why this wasn't at least closer to the truth.

The cities chosen also don't make much sense to me. There was a map posted earlier with 750 mile circles drawn on it, and it looks to be horribly inconvenient for PNW and California, generally much of the west, as well as much of the far east, which is where I thought a majority of the teams were. Neither of these cities is super cheap to fly into, Houston ain't the worst, but detroit is pretty pricey, and only getting worse. Flying is what it appears most east and west coast teams will need to do.

There was an earlier suggestion about a small basketball arena for the true championship, to crown a real winner and a tongue in cheek suggestion about not invitiing chairmans, ei, HoF 2nd, 3rd picks. I think these ideas honestly work well together. Have your big flashy championship events, inspire the kids, and invite the best robots to a one weekend day, true championship. I don't have a good metric for picking "The best robots", but I would hope FIRST could scramble together the money to pay for those best robots(and a skeleton team) to get to ultrachamps. In a perfect world, these super exciting matches would be televised(at least web broadcast with enough bandwidth for everyone who wants to to watch), which would inspire the public, and keep FRC a sport.

On a different note, I can't speak for them, and they're certainly way too busy about now, but I'm really glad I'm not a Michigan volunteer once Detroit hosts a championship.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by Jared Russell

This is quite literally how the Europa League works in European soccer. Finish in one of the top 4 spots in your division? You go to the Champions League (top level cup competition). The next two spots? Europa League. Both competitions are taken fairly seriously, and at the end there is a match between the champions of the two (The European Super Cup).

Not saying that it is necessarily the right thing to do for FRC, but there is precedent.

European football teams are generally thrilled to keep playing, since the clubs make more money off of branded merchandise and ticket sales, and the players can increase their salaries and their open market value. High school students and volunteers might not do so well adding another week of time out of state and away from school.

[AndrewPospeshil]

Whew, so I just read through 38 pages of angry FIRSTers. Something I would never agree to before today. I'll keep my input regarding the implications of this decision to myself seeing as I've hardly known the news for 12 hours now. I ask only a few questions (I apologize in advance for the length of this rambling post - it's 12:30 am and I'm avoiding much needed sleep rn ):

1. Why would FIRST announce this plan at this time? The morning of the first day of 3 DCMPs? It seems like possibly the worst time to do so. 2015 CMP is looming on the horizon - FIRST is probably busy organizing that, working out issues with teams who need help, etc. It seems like the logical time would either be a) at CMP 2015, where all the organizing and planning has been done, and the season is just days from ending or b) in the offseason, when FIRST is relatively dormant and can handle such a large community reaction (which I'm sure they saw coming with such a relatively vague announcement)
2. Speaking of vagueness, why would FIRST announce this plan with a seemingly small amount of information fleshed out? They've determined the broad scope of the event, but a lot of the finer details haven't been revealed/worked out. Now granted they might be looking for some community input before determining things like 2 Champion alliances, 2 WCAs, etc, but I feel like FIRST is pretty good at gauging what's good for the community without it's input (Aerial Assist, district model). I feel like they've revealed only the least appealing information - although that may be intentional, ripping off the metaphorical bandaid)
3. I only suggest CD members (and people not associated with the decision making process in general) to consider what you post in this thread - As a student it is by no means my job, duty, or responsibility to police what others say and post, but it appears some people are allowing their emotions to get ahead of themselves. We've known about this news for less time than some of us will spend building during one day of build season; let's cool it a little. I've seen posts in this thread talking about leaving FIRST altogether, starting revolts or petitions, etc. While I don't necessarily think those ideas are super far-fetched and out of the question (okay, maybe a little ), I think we should wait until the changes are a) in the much nearer future and b) described in much more detail before jumping ship. FIRST has existed successfully for close to 30 years now - I hardly think they would make a decision so horrible that they start to lose all their members!

TL;DR: chill yo

(standard disclaimer about how this post expresses my personal views and my views only, not those of my team, school, city, etc etc)

[runneals]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

I'm confused why they aren't implementing super regional events like FTC does. 2 WC events is going to be harmful to the overall quality of this program.

EXACTLY my thinking John! The FTC North SR was super amazing and fun. Why don't they have 4 "Super-Regional Events" (north, south, east, west) that incorporate all the programs (like champs does) to replace champs? This would make the most sense, as it would bring in teams that are more local to the area and reduce travel significantly (I think almost all of our teams drove to the North SR). I could see something really cool like this happening (allowing for quite a few more of the top-notch teams from each state/regional to advance further, and then invite like the winner/finalist to Manchester (or around there) for a "World Championship" type event. I think this would be quite a bit more intimate for the teams advancing to Worlds, but I think it would be cool to get FIRST back to it's roots.

EDIT: Also worth noting that the FTC Super Regionals most likely won't move, as they have secured sponsors who would probably prefer them to not move. Plus gracious sponsors like Rockwell Collins/John Deere/etc brings a lot of people to help out at events.

Also, for those who were complaining about cost... FTC SR only costs $500/team. Is there a reason why we can't get pricing down to this for teams? Maybe find more event sponsors who will underwrite/sponsor the venue?

[Kevin Pardus]

Over the past several hours, with numerous breaks, I have read over at last count 566 posts on 38 pages. So this post most likely will be covered over quickly as more folks continue to respond to this thread.
Missing from those pervious posts are any comments reference what the future impact might be on the current FRC timeline of a Kickoff in early Jan with a 6-1/2 week Build Season followed by a 7 week Regional-District Competition Season. In 2017, using the current FRC timeline, it seems that teams participating in any Week 7 events will only have a few days between the end of those events and the start of the ‘Houston’ FIRST Championship. I am waiting for the other shoe to drop reference the following issues:
1) What will be the effects of the scheduled/contracted 2017-20 FIRST Championship dates on future Kickoff dates and associated Build & Competition Seasons?
2a) Which District Championships & Regional events will feed into which FIRST Championship?
2b) Will those competition events and FIRST Championship alignments change every year or be some what consistent?

[James1902]

500+ passionate posts from a group of usually very busy people on the subject of what is, to the outside world, a high school extracurricular activity...if we're not an amazing fandom I really don't know what is.

As someone who has worked to present FIRST as a form of entertainment for people inside and outside the program (which I think is consistent with the goals of FIRST) I have an issue with a narrative that lacks a satisfying conclusion. "One Championship event, bringing together competitors from around the world to have one shot at un-paralleled glory and prestige" is just a more compelling story than "two "Championship" events that bring most of the competitors from a certain area of the world to have a shot at equal prestige as that other competition". This just makes it more difficult to tell the story of the FIRST season, and that's already pretty difficult as it is.

Change is a fact of life. We grow, evolve, regenerate, and usually we move on, better than we were before. With the way FIRST is growing some sort of adjustment must be made, I think a majority of us agree with this sentiment.

Does this mean I like the changes they've made? No.

Is it driving me to quit the program? Probably not.

Have I become that annoying mentor who asks rhetorical questions to make a convoluted point? ...

I'm hoping that FIRST has a longer term plan for this system that addresses my concerns, but if they do I wish they would have made that clear when they made this announcement.

[runneals]

Originally Posted by Drakxii

But why have worlds that big? Why not just start the super regional system small with ~200 teams per super regional, and then have like 30 per super regional make worlds. Money is already an issue, no need to make the worlds large just to be large.

I think getting FIRST back to it's roots in/around Manchester would be pretty cool and have FIRST HQ open to tours/etc (I don't know if you could do that with like 120 FRC teams ...)

[Kevin Ray]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I'm also concerned by this attitude. Champs as the ultimate robot competition is depressing to me since to achieve this you need to:

1. Eliminate waitlists, and probably wildcards. They didn't win in so they shouldn't be there.
2. Eliminate advancing 2nd and 3rd picks. They're usually just along for the ride on the winning alliance.
3. Eliminate advancing chairman's, HoF, and EI robots. Their robot didn't get them there, so that would water down the competition.
4. Eliminate advancing RAS. Best rookie is still a rookie.
5. Eliminate advancing original and sustaining teams. Just cause you used to be good...

I mean, if we're serious about crowning the one true champion and all that.

This has been my sentiment for a long time. I was just too chicken to say it. And this is from a team who has been to the CMP 9 consecutive years (counting this year) and all but two of them are for the reasons listed above so I think we know what it's like to get there by all means.

[ratdude747]

9LONG post ahead, but I have something to say)

My personal opinion, based on current information: (sarcasm in italics)



Yup. That's what came to mind, for those who won. Yeah, you won. Won what? Doesn't matter, you won. Good Job This trophy feels cheap and looks familiar (sees a bunch of other teams with similar trophies)... Doesn't matter, you won

The way I see it is that FIRST seems to be looking to lower the bar rather than raise the floor. Champs is a big fun party... but it's champs. Where the best of the best are recolonized and more importantly, the model teams for others to emulate, follow, and gain inspiration from.

Sure, good teams will still be good teams either way, but awards are about giving credit where credit is due. It's the reason why when one wins, they are the ones that get the winner's trophy. This is why I think splitting champs w/o some sort of a true final is a HUGE mistake. Sure, there will always be IRI, but IRI isn't meant to be such and making it such (even defacto) would make it something other than IRI.

Some other issues I see (which have been mentioned before):

-southeastern teams and the west coast get the wrong end of the stick, travel is a lose-lose for them. No improvement, but given the relative size of such, one can't claim "improved travel" and still have a straight face without an asterisk.

-Due to a potential competitive level difference between locked regions, one would in time become a step-sibling to the other. This would be bad news for a lot of teams, as it would turn into what NASCAR has with the sprint cup (the elites, mostly) and the Xfinity series (less than elites with a bunch of elites who "steal" wins half the time). While this comparisons seems a bit odd, hear me out; The drivers who "steal" the Xfinity wins would be the elite teams forced into the lesser championship, where they would presumably win a disproportionate amount of the time, leading to such sentiment. The difference being that NASCAR knows well that one is the elite league and one is the lackey league, and that said drivers actively choose to race in the lower league (in addition to Sprint).

---------

Since I want this post to be ultimately constructive, Here's my personal advice for what to do (idealy in some ways):

-Recognize that in order to be a sport in the sense that other HS sports are seen and understood, there has to be a true championship attitude at all events (in that there will be true winners), and structure events to reflect that. Even if there is NO world championship (highest level is region), at least recognize those who excel (and not just say "you'all win, come back next time")

-Move as many areas as possible to districts, with district championships

-(sorta unrelated) make invitation to championship merit based, not quota or waitlist based. Even the current notion of "you have 1/60 of all teams so you shall send 10 teams out of 600 attending" feels and from what I've personally seen in IN, is another place where the flawed logic of "everybody wins" in that invitation to championship is treated as given not earned. (I still think wild cards, HOF, past champions and legacies should get in, they did earn it as none are cakewalks to perform).

-If championship needs to be capped at 400 or 600, so be it. Make the lower events (DSC's) better and greater in quantity, and make championship something that is worth working for and earning.

Finally, I'll give an example that could have merit to follow: Toastmasters International (My dad is very involved with them). They have a large number of clubs (analogous to teams in FRC), and use a tiered system in the following taxonomy (used for the international speech contest each year) : area, division, district, region (former, retired), and world conference. Present FRC districts are about the size (kinda smaller actually) of districts in TI... they used to have a region level that would say be 1/2 or 1/3 of the US (going off memory) which was since rolled up into an expanded world conference. In this case, since most attending are individuals, not whole clubs, the roll up made sense... but before, the region level did work and was sustainable.

On a side not, they also have redistricted clubs where they use a different system to compete (taped speeches) due to the long distances between said clubs (they're typically in remote locations).

Another similarity: they're about improving peoples leadership and public speaking skills, not just winning contests. However, clubs generally do give out awards each meeting for best speaker and best table topics (impromptu speaking), of which about 3 members will perform each meeting. This competitive yet supportive atmosphere is in many ways similar to what FIRST is like to me.

The point here is that there are systems that do work, and allow for a competitive yet supportive organization, and do not require axing one to gain the other.