[FRC Blog] We're Listening

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by audietron

The elite Super teams are going to continue to not like this, along with most teams that have already been to championship. The teams that have not been to championship before may not care whether there is one or two places to go. They just are as excited either way.

Sure, there is value in more teams going to the the championship event, but at what cost? Is paying to go to Detroit to see 400 boxes on wheels drive around in circles any more inspirational than driving to your DCMP to be a part of a higher caliber event?

You can make an argument that the teams we are trying to introduce to CMP wouldn't exist without the drive of a group of mentors, volunteers, and sponsors who have made things like easy to use control systems and kit drive bases possible. The people directly involved in building up FRC love FIRST because it's not only a way to positively impact and inspire students, but also a way to participate in a really cool competition. The drive to be the best has driven many of the innovations that has allowed FRC to be what it is today. If you take that goal away, what is there to strive for? Who wants to be a part of a competition where everyone is a winner?

[FIMAlumni]

Reading through some of the comments, I wonder how people would feel about the following:

Detroit: Super District championship. No more District(or state) championships, but all the district winners/wildcard teams would advance from their districts (FIM,PWM,MAR, ect.) to Detroit. Matches would play out and we would crown a District championship alliance. Teams would continue to be ranked in their respective district systems and qualify worlds based on rank.

Houston: Typical world championship with teams from across the globe, including teams that qualified at the super district championship.

Just an idea considering I'm guessing FIRST now has contracts with both Detroit and Houston to bring 400+ teams to the city.

[jman4747]

Well FIRST has defined what their purpose for championships is and how they want to achieve it. That much is their right. They have asked us to help them make it work and I say we should help.

If you don't think it aligns with your way of inspiring people than I guess FRC isn't for you? Because somehow this just won't inspire any new people ever again?

[George Nishimura]

I welcome this as a gesture of good will and a potential start to a solution, but the situation has not changed, and my disappointment is still in tact.

It's going to be my first time at St. Louis, but it seems like it's going to be an extra lively one!

[Red2486]

Originally Posted by audietron

The elite Super teams are going to continue to not like this, along with most teams that have already been to championship. The teams that have not been to championship before may not care whether there is one or two places to go. They just are as excited either way.

This is incredibly accurate. And although I believe those elite teams do have the right to be worried and concerned, but I think many people are overlooking their privilege to attend championships each year. Not everyone always qualifies, and the chance to go to championships is really a life changing event and one the advances the mission of FIRST. Getting that to more of FIRST's participants is an excellent and neccessary goal.

That being said, is this 'fix' perfect as is? No, but there is still time to make those changes to make it a more enjoyable experience for those elite teams as well as the wait list, rookies, and first-time-attending teams.

[ehoyla]

I hope they do the same with the chairman's winners between the two as well.

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by audietron

The elite Super teams are going to continue to not like this, along with most teams that have already been to championship. The teams that have not been to championship before may not care whether there is one or two places to go. They just are as excited either way.

Our team is a middle team. We has never been to worlds, and just last week was our first District Championship, and we were inspired by some of the greatest teams in the PNW, but not being able to see about half of the teams that can be considered "The Greatest of X year" if we ever made it kind of cheapens the idea of being able to go to worlds. Teams like us miss out on some of the greatest teams in the east coast and across the Atlantic, while the other misses the west coast and on. I always hear about how inspired people are when they go to worlds, with this teams like us may miss the wonder and inspiration one could get with this new system.

Personally, im not excited. As for the rest of my team, they are on spring break, and they wont know till i say something about it. If i were to guess, The mentors will be torn between more chances but less inspiration on how to be better, the more "there for fun" people will be happy to get out of school if we make it, but the ones like me who are here to build, learn, be inspired, and compete, they wont like this setup, as there is less powerhouse teams to talk to and learn from, it will be more middle teams (like us) and ones who kind of just are along for the ride.

*These are explicitly my views, not of my team, sponsors, and such.*

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by FIMAlumni

Reading through some of the comments, I wonder how people would feel about the following:

Detroit: Super District championship. No more District(or state) championships, but all the district winners/wildcard teams would advance from their districts (FIM,PWM,MAR, ect.) to Detroit. Matches would play out and we would crown a District championship alliance. Teams would continue to be ranked in their respective district systems and qualify worlds based on rank.

Houston: Typical world championship with teams from across the globe, including teams that qualified at the super district championship.

Just an idea considering I'm guessing FIRST now has contracts with both Detroit and Houston to bring 400+ teams to the city.

I like the idea of turning the first event into a super-regional and the second one into the actual world championship. The biggest problem is that the teams that qualify for champs from that super-regional now have a week to arrange plans for worlds.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

Stop making champs less inspirational, and work on making DCMP's and Super Regionals more inspiring.

Why only those?

You know, the more time I spend in these topics, the more the argument that "Only big teams strongly dislike this proposal" is growing on me.

[Rangel]

Given this is FIRST's new plan of attack, what happens when FIRST grows even more down the road. In order to keep the 25% they want? There will have to be a third world championship event and then a 4th. By that time they are basically super regionals with the false title of world championship. I don't understand why we would go through this convoluted route instead of just focusing on making super regionals in the first place. It's the same outcome and still keeps the bar high for teams to rise to.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Why only those?

You know, the more time I spend in these topics, the more the argument that "Only big teams strongly dislike this proposal" is growing on me.

That's just the next step- making awesome super-regionals and DCMP's.

Also, I've seen people in these threads with teams I've never heard of that also oppose this change. Anyone I've told about this that isn't directly involved in FIRST is real confused by the proposition as well.

[dcarr]

Originally Posted by bduddy

You know, the more time I spend in these topics, the more the argument that "Only big teams strongly dislike this proposal" is growing on me.

There are hundreds of counter examples to this in the other thread.

[jtrv]

25% of teams?

Is that even a championship?

Finger Lakes had 45ish teams at the regional. I honestly do not believe that the top 11 teams deserve to go to championships.

Tech Valley had around 36 teams? I think? Not 100% sure. Around there. I do not believe the top 9 seeds deserve champs. We were around 12th, and we definitely didn't have a competitive robot compared to other teams. We kinda just got lucky with alliance performance and schedule.

[ASmith1675]

I understand the impetus of trying to give as many teams as possible the championship experience. It makes sense to try to inspire as many teams as possible. All of these things are very positive outcomes of the proposed plan.

My fear (though details obviously have not been completely set in stone) is that this change will segregate the country. It would be weird to never even have the chance to interact with half the teams in the country.

Several solutions that have been proposed would help ease my fears. Allowing teams with the means to "opt in" to the other championship would at least allow some of the cross-pollination that the current model offers in droves.

I think the goal should be to move everyone to a district model and allow cross-district play. Districts would continue to feed in to a District Champ (or call it a Super-Regional), of which there would be 10-12. These then qualify teams for the World competition.

This allows team (if they have the means) to travel outside their districts to inspire others. It also allows teams on the borders of the districts to decide to play elsewhere that may be more financially feasible. (Teams in the UP of Michigan can choose to play in Wisconsin or Minnesota, or teams just over the Indiana border from Chicago could choose to play in Illinois).

Moving forward with the proposed model could put us in a situation where you are only able to see team from your district, or from your Championship group. This is the situation I would like to see avoided more than anything. The interaction between teams from different backgrounds and locations does more to propel ideas than anything else in my opinion. This type of interaction is done most effectively in person.

[Rachel Lim]

I still believe that there are multiple ways to inspire students in FRC. The two main methods can be grouped into what I call the "CD method" and the "non-CD method." I still believe that CD is not always representative of the majority of students in FRC, or even representative most of the time. Proof: my team. I've seen again and again that the logic that works on CD doesn't work on my team. They just disagree with some of the most fundamental ideas that CD builds on--specifically that success and learning from those more successful is the basis of inspiration. They're not wrong; they're just different.


This new champs structure is aimed at students like them, who just want to have a chance to compete more. It's aimed at teams who want to know that they did something right. It's aimed at everyone who isn't on CD, who isn't as obsessed about it, but who still could be inspired by it.


I don't like this at all. I wouldn't find it inspiring to get to champs just because the bar was lowered, I would feel like we didn't deserve to go there. But as I said before, most people would disagree with me and I know many other students on my team who would. Most people just want the opportunity to get to champs, something they'll never get otherwise. They want to say that "we made it to world championships." FIRST wants to give them that.

But there are also people who want to have that top goal to push towards. They want to keep the competition which pushes us all to do our best and strive for more the next year, because without the competition what is FRC? Without winners, there is no competition. I truly believe FIRST wants to give us this too. But there's another very large group of people who don't care about this.

I'm just sad there isn't a middle ground between both groups. FIRST had to pick between bringing the bottom up while keeping the top, and lowering the top while bringing the bottom up more. They picked between district champs / super regionals and keeping champs, and splitting champs. I'm still disappointed in the choice that they made.