[FRC Blog] We're Listening

[jman4747]

While I do get what people mean by "half of the country" you never really were playing the whole thing anyway. Also not just U.S. teams out there FYI. Just because 25% of the teams play doesn't denounce the winning 4 teams per event. In fact being the 1% of 400 other teams should be very rewarding.

[microbuns]

I’m personally very interested in hearing your ideas about how we may be able to arrange for final matches between the winners of FIRST Championship Houston and FIRST Championship St. Louis.

As am I. As long as this is implemented and run properly, I'd be quite content with this change.

[MrTechCenter]

I think FIRST is really missing one of the key elements of the entire FIRST program here. This blog post made it clear that they want to inspire lower-tier teams by letting them come to Champs, but is that really going to do the job when your team was just given a golden ticket? I think it's much more rewarding to inspire teams in other ways, so that their first trip to Champs (when they've earned it) is a much greater feeling. If teams are just going to get off the waitlist, wouldn't that instill some kind of mentality where a team would just wait a few years until the next time they can get in off the waitlist?

One of the key parts of FIRST is preparing students for the real world. In the real world, you don't get handouts. You have to earn your way to the top. Sure, if you got a little taste of "how the other half lives" you'd probably want to experience it again, right? And you'd probably be willing to work a little harder to get there, right? Sure, in some cases this is probably true. But I've seen teams that went to champs one year tank hard the next. That's just the way it is, and we can try to change it as a community, but this isn't the way.

[Drakxii]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

Stop making champs less inspirational, and work on making DCMP's and Super Regionals more inspiring.

This!

If Frank doesn't think that other events anrt inspirational enough fix that!

Also if Frank really wants to show the greatness of champs to the students of FRC make the webcasts better! Show the great pits, broadcast the workshops, show off FTC and FLL, etc... Make it a show that FRC kids/parents/sponsors want to see and will be awed by not just another regional webcast.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

I like the idea of turning the first event into a super-regional and the second one into the actual world championship. The biggest problem is that the teams that qualify for champs from that super-regional now have a week to arrange plans for worlds.

The biggest issue isn't the planning, it's the travel cost. Teams from PNW and NE would all have to pay two airfares per traveling student per season (if they qualify), plus district events travel. That's quite a bit more money than the current DCMP -> worlds setup that the districts have.

[jman4747]

Originally Posted by MrTechCenter

I think FIRST is really missing one of the key elements of the entire FIRST program here. This blog post made it clear that they want to inspire lower-tier teams by letting them come to Champs, but is that really going to do the job when your team was just given a golden ticket? I think it's much more rewarding to inspire teams in other ways, so that their first trip to Champs (when they've earned it) is a much greater feeling. If teams are just going to get off the waitlist, wouldn't that instill some kind of mentality where a team would just wait a few years until the next time they can get in off the waitlist?

One of the key parts of FIRST is preparing students for the real world. In the real world, you don't get handouts. You have to earn your way to the top. Sure, if you got a little taste of "how the other half lives" you'd probably want to experience it again, right? And you'd probably be willing to work a little harder to get there, right? Sure, in some cases this is probably true. But I've seen teams that went to champs one year tank hard the next. That's just the way it is, and we can try to change it as a community, but this isn't the way.

Charley seemed happy with his.

Meanwhile you will still have to win a regional or district championship or get a wait list spot to go so how is it any easier than 2014?

I also take offence to the wait list bashing and from now on you can go ahead and call me out specifically if you want to continue denouncing wait listed teams.

[audietron]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

Sure, there is value in more teams going to the the championship event, but at what cost? Is paying to go to Detroit to see 400 boxes on wheels drive around in circles any more inspirational than driving to your DCMP to be a part of a higher caliber event?

You can make an argument that the teams we are trying to introduce to CMP wouldn't exist without the drive of a group of mentors, volunteers, and sponsors who have made things like easy to use control systems and kit drive bases possible. The people directly involved in building up FRC love FIRST because it's not only a way to positively impact and inspire students, but also a way to participate in a really cool competition. The drive to be the best has driven many of the innovations that has allowed FRC to be what it is today. If you take that goal away, what is there to strive for? Who wants to be a part of a competition where everyone is a winner?

I am just pointing out the facts. I don't agree with the decision to split worlds. Keeping it at district champs then worlds is a good solution that has its flaws as well but is better in my opinion than 2 "world" champs.
I also believe that splitting up champs and allowing more teams does not mean there will be a bunch of box on wheels at champs. They still have to be good to win a regional or get enough points in districts. There are 2 polor opposites at the moment, one where people are all about the competition and the other (FIRST) who believe that inspiration comes from participating and nothing more. There has to be some sort of middle ground.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by jman4747

Charley seemed happy with his.

Meanwhile you will still have to win a regional or district championship or get a wait list spot to go so how is it any easier than 2014?

Because there are more slots. Regionals won't see a big increase in the number they send because it's set. Districts and Wildcards will.

This year, about 9-10 of the teams that qualified to worlds from the PNW weren't picked to be part of an elims alliance at DCMP. Last year, we were 8th alliance captain and we barely qualified (I know there are other cases, but just making the point) More slots = Easier qualification.

Also, wildcards at worlds this year are making up quite a large percentage of the attending teams... More so than in years past.

[martin417]

Ill just leave this here....

[Cory]

Originally Posted by audietron

I also believe that splitting up champs and allowing more teams does not mean there will be a bunch of box on wheels at champs. They still have to be good to win a regional or get enough points in districts.

Not necessarily...there were 200 teams let in off the waitlist this year. Presumably that number goes up in 2017 and future years, if we have 2 championships with 600 teams each.

[audietron]

Originally Posted by Cory

Not necessarily...there were 200 teams let in off the waitlist this year. Presumably that number goes up in 2017 and future years, if we have 2 championships with 600 teams each.

In this case I agree that there is a big issue. I would at least hope that they would allow finalist captains or engineering excellence winners to qualify. Based on the intent though I don't see that being the case.

[Chris is me]

Lots of people are proposing a solution along the lines of District/Regionals ->> DCMP/Super Regionals ->> World Champs, and making the second tier of events closer to world championship production and event quality. I think this is the natural way for things to grow, and it could be very inspiring indeed.

The main problem everyone brings up in response is - well, then 400 teams are all trying to get to champs on one or two week's notice. Valid problem, but there's a solution to that. It's not a perfect solution, but it actually would fix a bunch of different problems with scheduling champs, avoiding AP testing season, avoiding Easter, avoiding Vex Champs, fitting in more and more regionals...

Is there any reason we can't have champs in the early summer? Last week of May, first week of June, that area. Just take a month off between DCMP and CMP, for the teams that can go? Some schools would have issues with it, I know, but many academic and athletic competitions have their national competitions late, sometimes even after the school year ends, so it's not completely impossible.

What does this do? It means that there's time between Districts and Super Regionals to schedule travel plans. Maybe districts could be a little bigger as a result, giving us a handful of events (like, 12 - 14) sprinkled across the country. 30 teams from each can advance, for a 360 - 420 team World Champs. And there would be time between the Super Regionals and World Champs for teams to get plans in order as well.

I know some teams wouldn't be able to do this, yes. But the intention of the three tier idea everyone is kicking around is that the second tier wouldn't be just some other regional event. It would be itself a championship - a privilege to qualify, worth it just to be there, etc. The idea is that you're getting most of the experience of an early 2000s championship at tier 2, and that tier 2 would complete the season positively for many middle tier teams.

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

This year, about 9-10 of the teams that qualified to worlds from the PNW weren't picked to be part of an elims alliance at DCMP.

As one of these teams, in fact 31st out of 31 PNW slots (before waitlist candidates), I can say I agree. While we had a good enough robot and enough practice to win a district, we weren't as competitive as the top tier at the DCMP.

Our goal as a team, was to make it to world's in this transition year. It feels amazing and the kids are proud, because they know we worked hard to earn it. We want to be competitive at Saint Louis, we want to do our best to contribute in Qualification Matches, but most importantly we want to build a team.

I want my students to strive to be better, to learn more and want more. Being able to show them robots and teams that continue to inspire me allows me to do that. Without the risk of failure or more importantly a lofty goal to reach, how can I expect them to be Inspired to grow.

Teams don't want a banner or a championship slot handed to them, they want to earn it. Winning a match in the finals is not just a victory in the moment, it's being rewarded for all the hard work we put in during the season and up until then at the event.

You want to inspire? Give people all the examples they can get, teach them, and reward them the right amount for the time and effort they put in. That's inspiring.

[Tottanka]

Am i the only one who thinks that 25% is ridiculously high?
With all due respect, only the best should attend Champs. (and i'm saying that as someone who is not from a "best" team).
You want to inspire more teams - make regionals more inspiring, like they are in Israel. Also - have a good quality webcast, like an ESPN thing, with reporters going between pits and visiting teams getting close ups on robots or something.

Also, from my experience, the teams who work the hardest, usually perform the best and will eventually attend champs, even if its only 10% of the teams. Making it into the top 10% is really mostly about working your bo(u)tts off...

[Siri]

Dear Frank,

Thank you for listening at this point. However, I think many people would appreciate it if you didn't just listen now, you explained. Why was this solution chosen? How was the problem(s) it solved defined? What other options were considered? What was done to assess the best interests of teams? Who was consulted, what feedback was taken? Why was this process kept secret until after venues and dates were set? Is anything in the press release alterable? How can this model scale long-term? What are the future plans/alternatives?

In particular, what's the reasoning behind splitting Worlds to make two half-world inspiring events, rather than focusing on making the already planned/created next-tier events more inspiring? With this change slated for the FRC district conversion goal date (2017), why not up the quality of DCMPs (and the J/FLL and FTC equivalents) to something approaching what is now going to be Half-Worlds?


I'm cross-posting this to his Blog comments.