Preparing for the Town Hall Meeting on the New Championships Format

[Alex Webber]

Originally Posted by philso

It is not as simple as that. Some of us are involved in FRC and one of the other programs. Two road trips on two successive weekends will be very difficult to make work. Many FRC teams have these two other programs as significant parts of their outreach (think Chairmans) so their team members may have to choose between being with the team they are coaching or abandoning them to participate in the FRC event. We have already seen this happen when an FLL tournament was scheduled for the same day as the FRC Kickoff. Lastly, many families have students participating in programs other than FRC.

As stated on the FRC Blog, the dual championships would be based off of their regions. This being said, as long as your second program is located in the same region as your FRC team, then you should be good to go.

I support multiple teams across various FIRST Programs. Will they all be going to the same Championship?

In addition to qualification based on performance or ranking, FIRST will determine what teams attend which event based on geographical location of the team and by balancing team capacity at both events. Hence, it is highly likely that the geography for FTC teams at a given Championship will align with the geographies for FLL and FRC teams at the same event. However, we are still in the process of determining those geographic alignments for each Championship.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by dag0620

For those concerned about the other programs not seeing FRC, you can always have an exhibition tournament at the FLL/FTC championship, and the same thing with FLL and FTC at the FRC Championship. Just an idea at least.

This is what I've been advocating since the announcement. You can do two FLL/JrFLL events without any strife, because winning a championship tournament never was a golden ticket to World Festival. Some years, you are playing for a bid to an Open. So we'll roll with that.

Make one city the FRC Championship, make one city the FTC World Championship. At the FTC site, you hold the Good Guy Frank Invitational with 60-100 FRC teams. Some will opt to do it because it's closer, or the date works better, or they've got FTC teams that want to go, or maybe we invite some teams whose district points bubble burst--but you hold a full-fat, top-flight event there so you've got all four programs represented there. Do the same back for the FRC Championship, and you have an undisputed champion and four healthy programs with room to grow.

[Johnny]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

FLL and FTC at one location. All FRC teams at the other. Vendors, speakers, workshops can be more specific to age and needs this way.

Honestly I feel this would be the best course of action. I believe the community as a whole DOES NOT want to have 2 World champs, BUT it seems that FIRST HQ has already booked the venues. So just split up the events. One venue for the FLL/FTC and the other for FRC.

It's understood that some teams are part of multiple programs, but honestly no matter what we do, decisions will have to be made by teams. I feel it would be easier to organize the split of the FLL/FTC and FRC to different venues rather than organizing 2 splits at 2 venues...

Teams will just have to decide where they will allocate their resources as far as sending students to these events. Its just like the Olympics...you can't compete in every single event. You may physically be able to, but time does not allow it.

[tStano]

Originally Posted by jimbo493

The problem of splitting FRC and FTC/FLL is that you make it highly unaccessible for a lot of teams, because now the Championships aren't centrally located. If our team got invited to Houston we would have a much harder time than we are with St. Louis. One way we could have a top winner is to work a little like the NCAA March Madness where Midwest/West and North/South never meet until the title game, So the winning alliance would come from Houston to Detroit/St. Louis, maybe with some FIRST sponsoring, for the final matches, since the two events take place on two weekends. Not sure how cost-effective and time consuming this would be, but the team would really only need to be there Saturday. And to keep it fair they wouldn't have much time to work on their bot between the two competitions.

I agree. I think splitting FTC/FLL and FRC is a poor decision. There are teams which participate in both/all three and that would be just about the most taxing, most expensive situation one could find themselves in. Having successful FTC/FLL team(s) and successful FRC team(s) should not be punished. Also, the inspiration people see from seeing other leagues is awesome.

My post above describes a way to combat region lock and theoretically one being weaker than the other. This post describes one way to crown a true world champion.

Play out the semifinal rounds at each 'championship' and take the finals rounds to this 3rd location. Immediately after the last semifinal match, the winning robots and necessary tools are bagged and shipped(on FIRST's dime) to a one day, televised "true world championship" which would be done on a third weekend in a different smaller arena that is a huge airport hub(Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Denver, LA, NYC).

There would be just 4 alliances to make it to this final level. The teams(a skeleton crew, maybe just drive team and elims pit crew) would be flown out for a single saturday, on FIRST's(or hopefully the broadcast sponsors') dime. You could of course bring the whole team, but it would cost you, and they wouldn't be allowed on the field except for pictures at the end (as is usually the case for elims pit crew). This whole event would take less than 2 hours, and could be easily televised, with interviews with drivers and whatever.

Highest seeded north plays lower seeded south, Lower seeded north plays Higher seeded south, winners of those play each other. This final championship is one day, so shouldn't be TOO taxing on everyone. Its free, and awesome, and you would assume anyone would go. Because FIRST has the robots in their control, you could hold this at any time, the next weekend, or even the summer, and the season is essentially frozen in time. Don't allow any witholding allowance for superchamps. Allow minimal time to work on robots so they are in a very close state to how they were at the end of their championship.

It also could be an intimate place to roll out a red carpet and really schmooze some sponsors, as well as bring FIRST more into the public eye.

This idea is way too specific. I just had to make some arbitrary decisions to write it out coherently, so it of course needs tweaking.

Also, its not my idea, I put it together from reading that super long thread

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Billfred

This is what I've been advocating since the announcement. You can do two FLL/JrFLL events without any strife, because winning a championship tournament never was a golden ticket to World Festival. Some years, you are playing for a bid to an Open. So we'll roll with that.

Make one city the FRC Championship, make one city the FTC World Championship. At the FTC site, you hold the Good Guy Frank Invitational with 60-100 FRC teams. Some will opt to do it because it's closer, or the date works better, or they've got FTC teams that want to go, or maybe we invite some teams whose district points bubble burst--but you hold a full-fat, top-flight event there so you've got all four programs represented there. Do the same back for the FRC Championship, and you have an undisputed champion and four healthy programs with room to grow.

This is actually a reasonable proposal... It ain't great but it does use both venues and could maybe be a solution.

[Kevin Sevcik]

How many teams are you planning on for your FRC-only Champs? You can only cram so many into a venue. I'm pretty sure Houston can host 400 teams in style. 600 teams and 8 divisions would start to get crowded. Any more than that, and I think you're going to be disappointed in the results. I'm pretty sure 600 team capacity is necessary, since regionals this year could generate 336 champs slots. So unless you're eliminating some of those slots, you're going to have to have 600+ teams at some sort of championship event come 2017.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

How many teams are you planning on for your FRC-only Champs? You can only cram so many into a venue. I'm pretty sure Houston can host 400 teams in style. 600 teams and 8 divisions would start to get crowded. Any more than that, and I think you're going to be disappointed in the results. I'm pretty sure 600 team capacity is necessary, since regionals this year could generate 336 champs slots. So unless you're eliminating some of those slots, you're going to have to have 600+ teams at some sort of championship event come 2017.

I'm not directly arguing for the proposal, but isn't 2017 also the deadline to roll out more Districts? I wouldn't expect to have 56 Regionals in 2017, not with Texas, Minnesota, NY, Capitol Region, California (however they do it), etc, switching over. Or is this not happening/not definitive?

I like the Detroit FLL/FTC+Exhibition strategy. I'd actually suggest switching it so this is in Houston, only because that keeps FRC Worlds centrally located in St. Louis a year longer. That means only 3 years of a Detroit Championship are set in stone, not even a full high school career. Just a thought.

[EricH]

I've got a "different" proposal. I'm not going to discuss 2 Championships with 800 combined teams, or 1 with 600+ teams.

I'm going to counter with: "When (not if) does this become 4 Championships, with a combined 800+ teams, with/without a single World Championship Final Event? And, what does that look like?"

I'm early, I know. But if you really want to make things "easier" on teams, why go north/south when you can go east/west (or even all 4 directions)?

So let's think about this a moment. Say you have 4 championships. North, South, East, West. South is (generally) held somewhere in TX/LA/FL/Ga. North tends to migrate towards MI/IL. West is somewhere on the West Coast (we do have a few venues out here big enough); East is, obviously, somewhere on the East Coast (but biased towards the Northeast). Each championship is fed by teams from a defined area, by some defined set of qualifiers. (For simplicity: the standard 6 teams/event will do, at least for discussion.) Each championship gets at least 200 teams, probably more (200 is too small and too big to work with what's next).

As a side note, you should be able to get a 400-team event into any of those regions, somehow. For a 2-championship system, this allows some rotation between cities--and said rotation offers a different batch of teams a better chance to slide in as volunteers or spectators if they don't make it.

Per championship event, you will have either 2 or 4 divisions (leaning towards 4, each with 60-70 teams, rather than 2 with 100). See "previous years' championships" for play style. Each event will also have a feed from the other championship events for viewing. At the end, you send all the winners and certain other designated teams to one location--let's just say about 60 teams in all, to St. Louis, because we can. And then... they play for the World Championship. (For some reason, venues that can handle a 60-team event are much easier to find than venues that can handle a 400-team event...)

Or you come up with some other way of naming a World Champion--computer simulation, FRC Top 25, highest total points, best win-loss record as an alliance...

[gblake]

Folks it's almost amusing to see just how deeply many of us are stuck in the rut of thinking that FIRST Championships (now that there are going to be more than one) will only occur in North America (a few years from now).

Discuss ...

Blake

[EricH]

Originally Posted by gblake

Folks it's almost amusing to see just how deeply many of us are stuck in the rut of thinking that FIRST Championships (now that there are going to be more than one) will only occur in North America (a few years from now).

Discuss ...

Blake

Where are the vast majority of teams and events located currently?

Or rather: Name the 4 official regionals that have taken place outside of continental North America in at least one year. (Hint: Brazil Pilot Regional only lasted 2 years; the other 3 are going strong.)

That being said, I can see in the far distant future having one or more outside of North America. Exactly where is an open question, though...

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Siri

I'm not directly arguing for the proposal, but isn't 2017 also the deadline to roll out more Districts? I wouldn't expect to have 56 Regionals in 2017, not with Texas, Minnesota, NY, Capitol Region, California (however they do it), etc, switching over. Or is this not happening/not definitive?

While at this point I've heard even the most ardent regional supporters are now saying "when" about Districts in Minnesota, whether we'll be in Districts by 2017 has yet to be seen. Certainly there hasn't been a public announcement or any obvious planning.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Siri

I'm not directly arguing for the proposal, but isn't 2017 also the deadline to roll out more Districts? I wouldn't expect to have 56 Regionals in 2017, not with Texas, Minnesota, NY, Capitol Region, California (however they do it), etc, switching over. Or is this not happening/not definitive?

Districts are going to sweep across the country in the coming years from what i've been seeing and hearing. Virginia, the Capitol Region, Minnesota, even Georgia and North Carolina have been in talks of transitioning over in the next few years. I feel like the transition to districts in so many more regions may be enough to circumvent any overpopulation issues at championships.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by EricH

Where are the vast majority of teams and events located currently?

Or rather: Name the 4 official regionals that have taken place outside of continental North America in at least one year. (Hint: Brazil Pilot Regional only lasted 2 years; the other 3 are going strong.)

That being said, I can see in the far distant future having one or more outside of North America. Exactly where is an open question, though...

Eric, your post just happened to be the one before mine. Mine wasn't written as a comment about yours in particular.

My counterpoint to your specific points quoted here is that I'll bet a cold Mountain Dew that China jumps into FRC with both feet very soon.

Regardless, how long do you suppose it will be before there are 100 to 200 decent teams in a cluster somewhere on Earth, who make a good case for not having to travel halfway around the planet to participate in one of the multiple North America Championships? And instead justify having one of their own?

If you want to plan for the future, it makes sense to include that scenario in the possible futures you assess.

Blake

[zinthorne]

Here is my proposal:

Since Houston and Detroit are probably required for use because of contracts, the plan needs to be formulated around each. To achieve this, I think that the current form of Districts and Regionals needs to be changed. I think that everybody should move to districts. What this would then allow is a fair way to seed teams to worlds. (For out of country teams, regionals would have to have a format set up) FIRST would then use the same method they use now for district teams to worlds. (In PNW the top 30 or so teams seed to worlds) What this would then allow is a 400-500 team championship event hosted in a single city. This would get the best teams from each event to worlds. We could have the "Everyone is a winner" mentality at the District championship level. This means multiple chairmans winners, but only the winners in the top 30 seed to worlds. (Using 30 as example for each district) This would be the same for all the awards that would normally seed you to worlds. So even if you win an award you would have to be in the top 30 to seed to worlds.

This model of all districts would allow for a fair way to seed teams to worlds. It would ensure the truly best teams go to worlds, and allow for there to be one true winner. This would I think also unite the FIRST community and give everyone a legit shot to seed to worlds. With the regional system there are truly good teams that do not make it to worlds, because they just arent on the traditional number one seeded alliance with the 2 teams that always pair up. I think we can all think of the teams in our areas that win every event in our area for as long as we can remember. And I am fine with there being powerhouse alliances that happen every year, but this system would allow for team who are not on those to still go to worlds. (For me personally my team has gotten second place to the same team for 3 years running and still has yet to beat them)

I hope you guys consider this idea for a FIRST championship.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by gblake

My counterpoint to your specific points quoted here is that I'll bet a cold Mountain Dew that China jumps into FRC with both feet very soon.

Regardless, how long do you suppose it will be before there are 100 to 200 decent teams in a cluster somewhere on Earth, who make a good case for not having to travel halfway around the planet to participate in one of the multiple North America Championships? And instead justify having one of their own?

I would suspect that it might be quite a while. Other than possibly China, nobody's been able to field more than about a dozen traveling teams to North America, and certainly not for long (China has a bunch of rookies right now; we'll see how they go next year). Brazil folded, mostly, as far as events and most of their teams. New Zealand/Australia is probably the leading candidate in my mind--before Australia got going, NZ was seriously considering having a regional but dropped out. They also happen to be "relatively close" to China and Hawaii (who also have a long trip regardless of where they go--logistics are a touch easier to the U.S. as far as "still in the same country" goes).

Once that happens, I would suspect that for the World Championship, you'd simply redistribute the numbers per Region Championship to include the "International" Championship. (Something like the Little League model, give or take a few stretched analogies.)