Future First Championship News

[AGPapa]

Originally Posted by grstex

Fair enough. For the record, I've been a part of FIRST since '99, when they first went to alliances. Our teacher and 3 veterans quit because it "watered down" the competition.

I agree with you and don't understand why people are making those arguments. The greatest part of champs isn't purely the competition. As you said, things like alliances and divisions already bring down the level of play.

What makes champs great isn't the robots, it's the people. It's Karthik's presentation, it's talking to 254's students about their robot, it's a strategy discussion with Kyle Hughes, it's seeing old friends, it's meeting all of the passionate and dedicated students and mentors from all the teams you've seen on livestreams for the past few months.

And this decision will take that greatness and cut out it's heart. Champs brings everybody together, this will split it in two.

[Rypsnort]

My thoughts on this:

We can't do anything about it for the next few years so live with it for now.

For those of us who have gone to Champs we know how awesome and inspiring it is. If FIRST is going to live up to its name and inspire kids and the public about STEM then it needs to reach a lot of people. This makes it so the maximum number of people can go to these events. And with the size to which FIRST has grown it is hard to get a decent percentage of teams into one event. So FIRST's intentions were good in making this move.

Now I know this makes it so that the winners are not completely the champions of the world, but all that needs to be done is have IRI or some off-season event have those alliances come and play each other for the unofficial-official championship.

Lastly, when the time comes to restructure again there are many routes to chose from. IMHO moving to an all districts/state championship format would be the best. Seeing how successful the current districts and state championships are this would be a great option. Also this would be more like other sports with more levels of play (district event, district championship, Nationals). From what the webcast showed the MSC event is similar to Champs in the atmosphere created at the event, so instead of one you get two events with festivities of Champs if you are lucky enough to go to both.

Have a great day.

[grstex]

Originally Posted by AGPapa

I agree with you and don't understand why people are making those arguments. The greatest part of champs isn't purely the competition. As you said, things like alliances and divisions already bring down the level of play.

What makes champs great isn't the robots, it's the people. It's Karthik's presentation, it's talking to 254's students about their robot, it's a strategy discussion with Kyle Hughes, it's seeing old friends, it's meeting all of the passionate and dedicated students and mentors from all the teams you've seen on livestreams for the past few months.

And this decision will take that greatness and cut out it's heart. Champs brings everybody together, this will split it in two.

Thanks Antonio. The people of FIRST (especially the students) are what have kept me involved all these years. I know that makes this difficult, but Einstein said "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." This is a chance for new friends to be made and new role models to rise up. I don't think that's too bad.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by grstex

I'd like to make a really crazy suggestion here. What if, maybe, somehow, in some way, against all odds, this all works out for the better?

What if, maybe, increasing the percentage of teams going to champs is a GOOD thing?

What if, maybe, giving mid-tier teams, who aren't world famous, a chance to see and interact with elite teams, even if its just one, helps inspire them?

What if, maybe, those teams learn something from this interaction with even one elite team?

What if, maybe, those mid-tier teams act on this new knowledge and start to vastly improve?

What if, maybe, they become successful, and gain sponsors and support?

What if, maybe, they become the "new elites?"

And finally, what if, maybe, they become the new source of inspiration in FIRST?

Is such a thing even possible? Am I crazy for thinking that this WON'T "water down" championships? That the disparaging and disappointing remarks by some are short-sighted? That the "alarming" (trying to be polite) phone call to some low-level FIRST staffer just trying to help teams get to this year's championship was not necessary? Is it possible that this might actually help fulfill FIRST's mission (which, BTW, makes no mention of "robots" or "competition")?

After thinking about it for a while, and taking with some people (some of them highly respected people in FIRST), I'm starting to think that it won't be as bad as we think. As someone pointed out below, when FIRST moved to alliances, many thought that it "diluted" or "watered down" the competition. And it didn't. I remember these discussions about switching to districts. Many people thought it would be awful. And it wasn't. It happens every year with the game discussions, and for the most part, it usually turns out okay.

I do have problems with the locations and venues they chose for this, and I understand that it may be impossible to have a 800-team championship. This could have been handled much better, and better solutions could have been made. But as far as the discussions about not having a "real" winner and all the boos and hisses about this, I can't help but think: FIRST isn't about the robot, is it? It's not inspiring to have one winner. It's inspiring to see these other teams, even if through a webcast or a revea video. It's the EXPERIENCE of champs itself.

Who knows, maybe this is a hybrid between when they can get districts everywhere. Maybe after districts are everywhere they can reevaluate the one champ model, but maybe they will outgrow the championship for a few years, and this is their TEMPORARY solution. We don't know.

But there is nothing we can do about it now but offer suggestions to improve their decision. There is nothing we can do but wait it out and see what happens. We all go through acceptance processes. I was right there on the bandwagon, too. But I've seen this thread move from 100% negative to showing some positive voices through the cracks. In time, this may be the new norm, just like districts, alliances (even regionals were new at one point), and we will learn to deal.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by grstex

What if, maybe, increasing the percentage of teams going to champs is a GOOD thing?

It is. Just not at the cost of splitting champs.

Originally Posted by grstex

What if, maybe, giving mid-tier teams, who aren't world famous, a chance to see and interact with elite teams, even if its just one, helps inspire them?

It probably will. Just there is a higher chance of being inspired at a single championships.

Originally Posted by grstex

What if, maybe, those teams learn something from this interaction with even one elite team?

They can, will, and have done this at regionals and District champs, nothing unique about champs other than more elites in one place which two championships doesn't do.

Originally Posted by grstex

What if, maybe, those mid-tier teams act on this new knowledge and start to vastly improve?

They will, just probably to a lesser extent. Many teams have shown that this is the case, and have fantastic seasons.

Originally Posted by grstex

What if, maybe, they become the "new elites?"

They will, they have before.

Originally Posted by grstex

And finally, what if, maybe, they become the new source of inspiration in FIRST?

Every team is an inspiration in FIRST. They will just become a larger one.

The problem is NOT that:

- More teams are qualifying
- The venues are closer (to some teams)
- It dilutes quality of the event

The problem is:

- You are making an event where the entire world meets in one place non-existient or exclusive to semi-championship winners
- You making the best event in the world more meh.
- You split the community in half. Which is never a good thing
- You might devalue HOF teams by adding two a year.
- It removes some of the most inspirational teams from your event.

Good things are:

- Provides another avenue for average teams to be elite.
- Closer to some teams.

Everyone is focused on the wrong problems here. Nothing is worth splitting the community for. We simply can't do that. Having two championships isolates north from south.

[alopex_rex]

Originally Posted by AGPapa

What makes champs great isn't the robots, it's the people. It's Karthik's presentation, it's talking to 254's students about their robot, it's a strategy discussion with Kyle Hughes, it's seeing old friends, it's meeting all of the passionate and dedicated students and mentors from all the teams you've seen on livestreams for the past few months.

Something to think about: I would guess at least 90% of FIRST participants don't know who Karthik and Kyle Hughes are, don't know anything about team 254, have no old friends in FRC outside of their area, and don't watch any livestreams. This is certainly true of everyone on my team, which includes many people who are very dedicated to FRC--that is, to building our robot and participating in our competitions. And it's true of the teams that will be able to go to championships now when they wouldn't have before, that is, the teams that this change is intended to help. After a visit to championships, even if it only covers half the country, a student might be inspired to start watching livestreams of events in other regions, or to look out for 254's robot. If they never go, they will probably only ever have a vague awareness of FRC teams out of their region.

Not to be impolite, but many people seem to think that because most people on an internet forum agree with them, their opinion is held unanimously by all FRC teams, and FIRST must reckon with it. It's important to keep in mind that this change is specifically targeted at teams whose voices are unlikely to be heard in this discussion.

[DarkRune]

Originally Posted by Edxu

And from a purely selfish standpoint, the Californian robots are all really cool and I'd be losing the chance to see them in real life.

Feel free to come out next year. I've heard the weather is nicer here

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

- You devalue HOF teams by adding two a year.

I'd like to see what HoF teams think about this move. HoF induction has gotten pretty cutthroat in the last 3-4 years and it's definitely not going to be any easier to pick one team over the other as years go on and more teams pile up more RCA/DCCA wins.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

Who knows, maybe this is a hybrid between when they can get districts everywhere. Maybe after districts are everywhere they can reevaluate the one champ model, but maybe they will outgrow the championship for a few years, and this is their TEMPORARY solution. We don't know.

I'm actually thinking that this is more correct. My hunch is that these aren't going to replace the Championship for long, but eventually they'll replace the DCMPs in whole or in part and there will be a Championship again.

Think about it this way: How many district systems are currently in play? (5) How many areas are seriously thinking about going district? (I've heard of at least 2-3 more; other areas have grave concerns about some aspects of the idea and may take some "convincing".) How much of FRC do those district systems cover currently? (About 28%, so give-or-take a third) But it's taken 7 long years from the announcement and all the flack at that time to get to those 5 district systems covering a third of the competition. I'm guessing that in about 10 years, we'll see a Championship again, could be sooner if Districts take off all over the place. (And, I remember hearing a way long time back that FIRST did want those smaller events all over the place rather than the larger events. This is back when alliances were still a new idea, as I recall. Definitely before autonomous was a thing.)

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I'd like to see what HoF teams think about this move. HoF induction has gotten pretty cutthroat in the last 3-4 years and it's definitely not going to be any easier to pick one team over the other as years go on and more teams pile up more RCA/DCCA wins.

Yeah, there are plenty of deserving teams out there. One could argue it's like an alliance winning championships, but then again, alliances you work closely together. And yeah I don't come from a HOF team, but as a non-HOFer that's just my gut feeling.

Originally Posted by EricH

I'm actually thinking that this is more correct. My hunch is that these aren't going to replace the Championship for long, but eventually they'll replace the DCMPs in whole or in part and there will be a Championship again.

Well temporary good/bad isn't really acceptable either?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

Well temporary good/bad isn't really acceptable either?

No, it's just easier to endure if you know that it's temporary. I think that's part of the problem: for all we know for sure, it's permanent. But we hope it's temporary.

[AGPapa]

Originally Posted by alopex_rex

Something to think about: I would guess at least 90% of FIRST participants don't know who Karthik and Kyle Hughes are, don't know anything about team 254, have no old friends in FRC outside of their area, and don't watch any livestreams. This is certainly true of everyone on my team, which includes many people who are very dedicated to FRC--that is, to building our robot and participating in our competitions. And it's true of the teams that will be able to go to championships now when they wouldn't have before, that is, the teams that this change is intended to help. After a visit to championships, even if it only covers half the country, a student might be inspired to start watching livestreams of events in other regions, or to look out for 254's robot. If they never go, they will probably only ever have a vague awareness of FRC teams out of their region.

You make some fair points. I was probably stretching it with Kyle Hughes, (we had a match with 27 last year at it was a lot of fun. She was a very impressive drive coach), but I wouldn't say that 90% of teams "don't know anything about team 254".

And if not for meeting all of these great people, how exactly are these teams getting inspired? Is it just the fancy lights and the arena? Is that all it takes to inspire someone to become an engineer? I think we can aim a little higher.

[Squillo]

I had this great idea and posted it in another thread and only one or two people have commented on it and I'm just dying to know what other folks think. Since this thread seems more active and I'm very impatient, I'm putting a link here in hopes of getting some feedback on my idea for improving the new "two championship" idea. So here it is.

If there's even a tiny bit of interest in this I have a whole 'nother post (ready to post but I didn't want to seem too hyper, which I know I now am so what the heck) with my analysis of what it will cost FIRST (somewhere between $500,000 and $1,000,000) and why.

I mean we're a bunch of "engineers" (OK, I'm actually a lawyer, but I just engineer solutions with words instead of stuff or code), why aren't we all over the place with solutions for this? I thought the "preparing for the town hall" thread was the place to do that but it seems folks would rather hang here and spout opinions than actually propose a lot of ideas (there have been some). Well, I had one, what do you think of it?

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Squillo

I had this great idea and posted it in another thread and only one or two people have commented on it and I'm just dying to know what other folks think. Since this thread seems more active and I'm very impatient, I'm putting a link here in hopes of getting some feedback on my idea for improving the new "two championship" idea. So here it is.

If there's even a tiny bit of interest in this I have a whole 'nother post (ready to post but I didn't want to seem too hyper, which I know I now am so what the heck) with my analysis of what it will cost FIRST (somewhere between $500,000 and $1,000,000) and why.

I mean we're a bunch of "engineers" (OK, I'm actually a lawyer, but I just engineer solutions with words instead of stuff or code), why aren't we all over the place with solutions for this? I thought the "preparing for the town hall" thread was the place to do that but it seems folks would rather hang here and spout opinions than actually propose a lot of ideas (there have been some). Well, I had one, what do you think of it?

I think it is a great idea. But I'd rather see the following (some teams have restrictions on how much school students can miss and other restrictions).

Assuming all districts (or mostly all districts). A world championship and a "US Open" (similar to what FLL does). Send some teams to one and some to the other based on certain criteria.

Maybe that is the winners on the field and Chairmans/ei/ra-s to one event, and all the other wild card/district points teams to the other.

Maybe it's just the alliance captains of the winning alliance and Chairmans/ei go to one and the rest go to another.

Or some other combination. Have one "real" world championship and have one more of a FIRST festival or "World Open" style.

Either that or put everyone in districts and go back to only inviting 6 teams from each district championship. But I'm liking that idea less the more I think about it.

I think FIRST has outgrown one venue. It is impossible to do an 800-team championship. But 400 teams just doesn't fit the size of FRC anymore. We have doubled in size since I joined 8 years ago. I think what I mentioned above is a reasonable solution. I've seen a number of people on here advocating for that.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Squillo

I had this great idea and posted it in another thread and only one or two people have commented on it and I'm just dying to know what other folks think. Since this thread seems more active and I'm very impatient, I'm putting a link here in hopes of getting some feedback on my idea for improving the new "two championship" idea. So here it is.

If there's even a tiny bit of interest in this I have a whole 'nother post (ready to post but I didn't want to seem too hyper, which I know I now am so what the heck) with my analysis of what it will cost FIRST (somewhere between $500,000 and $1,000,000) and why.

I mean we're a bunch of "engineers" (OK, I'm actually a lawyer, but I just engineer solutions with words instead of stuff or code), why aren't we all over the place with solutions for this? I thought the "preparing for the town hall" thread was the place to do that but it seems folks would rather hang here and spout opinions than actually propose a lot of ideas (there have been some). Well, I had one, what do you think of it?

I think a lot of people just skimmed the post. I know I did, initially.

It sounded like something that's already been posted, about having the winning alliance from the earlier event attend the later event to compete against the winners from that event. That's probably why I skimmed it at first.


Here's the #1 problem with having teams attend both events. It's not funding (though that's nice to get some help with). It's "time off". For both mentors and students, doing an extra event means taking extra time off of work or school, which in some cases may not be possible. There are ways to work around this, yes--but they involve sending partial teams, both of students and of mentors.

As for all the regional winners...There are 56 regionals and 5 DCMPs this year, and expect those numbers to grow (until some folks start admitting that they have to go district). 61 events, and if I read you right, that's either 2 or 4 teams per event going to both. 122 to 244 teams attending both--that's easily a quarter of each event, and possibly over half. That's not a small number. Then you gotta transport robots and team members. Now you add in the HoF and Legacy teams (7 of the latter, and something like 20 of the former). You're talking a third of the event is the same, minimum. A THIRD. Maybe two-thirds.

I don't think that that's a viable option, honestly. You've got at least a couple more semis in the caravan with the fields there, you've got 1400+ extra round-trip flights to book, and you know that those teams aren't going to just want 12 people (HoF teams gotta man their displays), so they'll have to bring the rest of the team or as many as they can manage on their own funding which may or may not be adequate... On top of arranging for the time off of work and school.

Don't get me wrong, I like the general idea of having a group of teams attend both Championships, but I would suggest instead having it be the HoF teams (in force, with or without their robots), the Legacy teams (same condition), the winners of the earlier event, and the entirety of the Conference presenters. Maybe include some of the higher-ranking teams at the earlier event (let's just say the division winners and/or division finalists). Maybe let the FRC community have a vote on a certain number of robots to get a Wilder Card to go to both championships. It's a smaller group, but probably has a bigger impact.