Building Out a Workshop

[EricH]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I'd suggest considering what the shop will be used for "the other 46 weeks" of the year. Summer workshops? Classes? Headquarters for pursuit of a Chairman's award?

Jason

In our case...driver practice, prototyping, and other FRC offseason activities. It's not open as often, though.

[MrForbes]

We have yet to find the ideal workshop. This year is pretty good, though. The Pre Engineering classroom is now in the old Print Shop (progress?), and there are several nice work benches with drop down power cords above, a roll up door, and a little bit of storage space. Unfortunately it's a classroom every day, so we have to put our stuff away when we're done with it. But the lighting is good, the teacher plays music often, there's a table to serve dinner, plenty of computers with CAD software, etc. There is a carpeted hallway where we can play with robots, and just a short hike to a larger play area. We even used the shop air once.

Somehow our team has managed to stay about the same size for ten years, with about ten "core" students, and another dozen or so that hopefully are getting something out of it. Since we don't seem to be able to get more mentors involved, I guess the size of the shop is just fine.

[cadandcookies]

I'd also suggest a bin cabinet for storage. When I was on 2220, we had a couple that we mounted on caster wheels that stored everything from safety gear to seven seasons of partially disassembled gearboxes. They're a bit pricy, but they're fantastic things, both for teams that have a dedicated build space and those who have to be more nomadic-- especially the latter, though.

I'm also a fan of good workbenches-- whether it's a station work table like this or a more table-y table like this (as a side note, I'm not recommending this specific supplier-- these are just examples of what I'm talking about-- research is key!).

As for size, I'd lay out precisely what you want in it-- even if you can't afford it all now. If you want to have a Bridgeport and a tooling cabinet in there, but can't afford it now, lay that out. If you're talking 10-15 people in the shop now and maybe 30-40 later, I'd plan for 2-4 workbenches plus whatever machinery you deem necessary.

I'd definitely second/third the idea of having a "clean" side of the shop-- keeping everyone in close proximity is huge, so if you can swing it, go for it.

Best of luck with your pursuit of a new shop space, and keep us updated! It's always cool to see what teams are capable of getting accomplished!

[BeardyMentor]

Speccing out, purchasing, and creating operating plans for model shops and makerspaces at universities and corporations is my job. I would like to share with you some pitfalls that are too easy to fall into.

1) Maintenance and operating costs money. Remember that you are going to need replacement parts, consumables like cutting tools, oil and grease. All of these cost money. Make sure you budget for these. If you are purchasing through a school, build operating costs for a minimum of 5 years into your budget. Always be thinking about sustainability.

2) Plan for training. Just because someone there right now knows how to use these tools does not mean they will be there in the future. Make sure you have a plan for training at least a few people. For manual machine tools this may just be watching some youtube videos. For CNC machines and other more complicated machines, you may need to pay to have someone trained by the manufacturer or put together resources for learning how to operate it.

3) Remember you need tooling. budget 20-50% of the purchase price of a machine tool for work holding and tooling. In similar vein; Make sure you have the software you need. For example; a CNC mill is not a whole lot of use without CAD *And* CAM software. It can be a killer if your school gives you a grant for that $50,000 vertical machining center but not for the CAM software to drive it.

4) work space is just as important as the tools to go in it. Make sure you budget for work benches, storage, power distribution etc.

5) focus on the basics, then move to the more complex stuff. Make sure you have a good set of hand tools before you start moving to machine tools. With machine tools stick with the most universal stuff first then move to the fancy computer controlled stuff.

[pmangels17]

Additionally, you can save a ton of money by building shelving and workbenches/tables from scratch. Use good dimensional lumber for the support, and thick, smooth plywood for the benchtops. We like it because it's cheap and easy to replace, meaning you can mount stuff to it and when the tabletop gets really unusable its not too difficult to change to a fresh top. For example, we usually build plywood "walls" around the bench that holds our bagged robot after bag day, so that students in the shop (it's also a classroom space) don't mess with the bag.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by BeardyMentor

.
3) Remember you need tooling. budget 20-50% of the purchase price of a machine tool for work holding and tooling. In similar vein; Make sure you have the software you need. For example; a CNC mill is not a whole lot of use without CAD *And* CAM software. It can be a killer if your school gives you a grant for that $50,000 vertical machining center but not for the CAM software to drive it.

If you go down this route and end up with the machine without the software, the student licenses of SolidWorks work just fine with HSMWorks Lite.

Some of the features are disabled in the Lite version but you can do a lot of the basic stuff with it.

Another CNC issue is make sure you understand all the parts of your CNC system before you buy it. A CNC plasma table without the plasma cutter is not very useful. A manual mill with retrofit and no control is equally an issue.

[GeeTwo]

Sorry - meant to post on another thread.
Any ideas on how to learn to use these tools should we buy them? Whether a lathe, a CNC, milling machine, or whatever, we don't have any mentors with experience using these tools.
Example: Off the top of my head, I can't figure out what I would do with a lathe that I couldn't do with a drill press and a bit of patience. Based on the posts, there's obviously something else they're good for.
Are there any on-line tutorials that cover use of these tools, or will each turn into a high-priced coat rack unless we find a local person who can teach us to operate it?

[Mike Marandola]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Any ideas on how to learn to use these tools should we buy them? Whether a lathe, a CNC, milling machine, or whatever, we don't have any mentors with experience using these tools.
Example: Off the top of my head, I can't figure out what I would do with a lathe that I couldn't do with a drill press and a bit of patience. Based on the posts, there's obviously something else they're good for.
Are there any on-line tutorials that cover use of these tools, or will each turn into a high-priced coat rack unless we find a local person who can teach us to operate it?

As far as machining, these are some of my favorite Youtube channels that I've learned a lot from:
-Abom79
-Tom Lipton
-Tubalcain
-Keith Fenner
-Keith Rucker
-Arduinoversusevil (not machining centric but hilarious)

Also, here are some decent resources from MIT: Overview and videos

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

If you go down this route and end up with the machine without the software, the student licenses of SolidWorks work just fine with HSMWorks Lite.

Some of the features are disabled in the Lite version but you can do a lot of the basic stuff with it.

HSMworks told me that the will be adding the full version to the autodesk student site making it free for teams.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by mman1506

HSMworks told me that the will be adding the full version to the autodesk student site making it free for teams.

It's already free. You just have to do some legwork to get in touch with a rep and get licenses.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by Cory

It's already free. You just have to do some legwork to get in touch with a rep and get licenses.

We've been doing that for the past few years. It usually takes a while (2-6 months) and the licence they give us only allows for one installation. Autodesk education makes it a one click download.

I think people overestimate the necessity of 3D CAM for frc, we've never found the need to do anything that HSMexpress couldn't handle.

[popnbrown]

Thank you for all the great tips. Here's a few follow up questions and things that I've been thinking about. If you feel very strongly about your recommendation and I have not included it let me know, so we can talk.

Follow up questions:
- My big question is does anyone have any recommendations as far as size? Clearly bigger is better, but I'm thinking about something around 450 to 500 sqft to be reasonable (I think I was looking at 30 x 18)
- Also what's the use of the compressed air line? When I was on the high school team, we had one in the robotics room but I didn't see that we got much use of it.
- It's likely that we will be unable to get a garage door, as they re-did the end of the school (and actually removed a loading dock garage door). Do you think it's still possible to load in a floor-standing lathe (maybe...mill) through standard double doors?
- Power. Bringing in a 220 (or 240V) line, is it worth it? What would it be most used for? Estimated cost?
- I tried looking in the other threads but most everyone talks about mill/lathe/cnc recommendations. Anyone have recommendations for a good floor-standing drill press?


Things that will definitely be getting purchased/in the shop (if we get one):
- Re-vamp our hand-tool collection: Allen Key sets, Screwdriver sets, Socket Wrench set (anything else that is key for hand tools?)
- Floor-standing drill press
- Mobile benchtops for assembly
- Workbench lining the wall (with vises)
- Storage: small part shelving, tool shelving, handheld tool peg board, raw material stock rack
- Power: Definitely, ceiling (or wall) retractable extension cords
- Misc: Stools for mobile benchtops, 1 to 5 computers for work, cabinet for storage of paper/books/dry food, sink

[apb2390]

Thank you for all the great tips. Here's a few follow up questions and things that I've been thinking about. If you feel very strongly about your recommendation and I have not included it let me know, so we can talk.

Follow up questions:
- My big question is does anyone have any recommendations as far as size? Clearly bigger is better, but I'm thinking about something around 450 to 500 sqft to be reasonable (I think I was looking at 30 x 18)
- Also what's the use of the compressed air line? When I was on the high school team, we had one in the robotics room but I didn't see that we got much use of it.
- It's likely that we will be unable to get a garage door, as they re-did the end of the school (and actually removed a loading dock garage door). Do you think it's still possible to load in a floor-standing lathe (maybe...mill) through standard double doors?
- Power. Bringing in a 220 (or 240V) line, is it worth it? What would it be most used for? Estimated cost?
- I tried looking in the other threads but most everyone talks about mill/lathe/cnc recommendations. Anyone have recommendations for a good floor-standing drill press?


Things that will definitely be getting purchased/in the shop (if we get one):
- Re-vamp our hand-tool collection: Allen Key sets, Screwdriver sets, Socket Wrench set (anything else that is key for hand tools?)
- Floor-standing drill press
- Mobile benchtops for assembly
- Workbench lining the wall (with vises)
- Storage: small part shelving, tool shelving, handheld tool peg board, raw material stock rack
- Power: Definitely, ceiling (or wall) retractable extension cords
- Misc: Stools for mobile benchtops, 1 to 5 computers for work, cabinet for storage of paper/books/dry food, sink

An air line in the shop allows use of compressed air tools. The benefits of these are high power density and no need to recharge, while remaining relatively portable. An air riveter can be very handy for putting together any significant number of riveted joints, and is invaluable if you start doing lots of sheet metal construction.

WRT getting machines in - if you can mange to get a loading dock/garage door installed, it's ideal. However, in the event that you can't, there's not a lot of machines that you can't get through a set of double doors (provided they have no center post, or it can be removed). You can almost always find a way to get the machine through the door, be it removing the head assembly on a bridgeport and rolling it in on a high-cap dolly, or using an engine hoist to lift up a lathe to roll it in. It helps a lot if you have someone experienced with rigging or moving machinery to direct the process along.

You'll need a higher power drop for either of those machines, if they're of any reasonable size. I can almost guarantee your school has 240 volt power already, so it's a matter of getting a drop installed. Cost-wise, talk to whoever manages the contracting at the school.

For a drill press, you can get a decent Jet drill press in the ~$500-600 range. It's not a precision machine, and you have to treat it kindly, but it'll drill holes, and it'll be a rather robust machine for students to utilize. If you can find an old used one from a local machine shop, that's also a good choice, but be prepared to give it a little TLC to make it happy.

Good luck getting your shop together!

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by apb2390

An air line in the shop allows use of compressed air tools.

Ah ok. I think we're some time away from sheet metal. I was looking up videos of installing an internal compressed air system and it doesn't seem terrible.

there's not a lot of machines that you can't get through a set of double doors (provided they have no center post, or it can be removed).

Cool this is good news. It's just likely that the room will be put next to the computer lab which is in the middle of the school.

You'll need a higher power drop for either of those machines

Okay, I think it'll make sense to have this installed if this shop happens.

For a drill press, you can get a decent Jet drill press in the

Any reason why you are recommending this model? I've seen Jet in many shops and know they're a well-used brand.


Also do you have any suggestions for a bench-top or floor-standing bandsaw?

[apb2390]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

Any reason why you are recommending this model? I've seen Jet in many shops and know they're a well-used brand.


Also do you have any suggestions for a bench-top or floor-standing bandsaw?

I linked the Jet because it was the first thing to come to mind as a decent, robust floor-standing drill press, and is generally available semi-locally to a lot of US teams. JETs are also sold, often more cheaply, as Grizzly or KBC (I think there's a couple other rebrands, too) - be sure to look for that kind of tool at a cheaper price.

As far as a band saw goes, a good floor-standing 13 3/4" Delta (or equivalent Jet/Grizzly) can sometimes be had for $250-300 from Lowes or equivalent. Surprisingly, I hear the Harbor Freight 9" benchtop bandsaw or MSC/Northern equivalrnt is pretty good. It is harbor freight, though, so keep that in mind.

You might also consider a horizontal band saw, instead of (or in addition to) a vertical one. Horizontals are nicer for cutting thick materials and pieces with larger structural cross sections, and can cut longer sections off without having to waste material with angle cuts. Basically, anything you'd do with a hack saw is work best suited for a Horizontal. They're not suited for more delicate work, though - you can do a lot on a vertical bandsaw with a steady hand. Many horizontals can be changed to be vertical position, and come with a table for this use. Brand recommendations are the same.

Used band saws can be a good idea in some cases, if you can find a robust older machine. You can often get a hold of well-used but still-good band saws for a decent price - local auctions and repocast are the places to look. Keep in mind you might be getting into a little restoration work if you go that route, but it can be well worth it. I was spoiled... we got to use a wide-mouth bandsaw that looked something like this. The thing cuts like a dream, and has a mouth wide enough to accomodate any work you throw at it. Finding a machine like that (hopefully not that big) is a great pickup.

For all bandsaws, remember to get wood or soft material blades (large tooth) instead of metal blades for cutting aluminum - see here for why.