Clash of Objectives.

[Sam_Mills]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

That neatly explains why I'm not understanding you. You have merely misread his statement completely.

...

You're basically saying the same thing he did. That's why your contrary "tone" confused me.

Then maybe I am the confused one, because I strongly disagree with a double championship being more inspirational, and if I am reading the OP correctly, he does not.

To be inspired by the act of competing, do you not have to be competing for something? Even if only bragging rights, there's little glory in winning a half championship. The OP says the act of competing should be enough to be inspirational, and I contest that with no real winner, there is no real competition.

[David Lame]

Whom do we wish to inspire? Is it our own kids? I think they are already inspired. I think we want to inspire a world, not our own little corner of it.

From whom do we wish recognition? Each other? That's a rather shallow goal, isn't it? I think we want recognition from the world at large. I believe I read that Dean Kaman wants to see a world where scientists and engineers are looked up to the way athletes and entertainers are today. You don't get that by only talking to each other.

We want to make it loud. So loud that it is heard outside the stadium walls.

First Robotics should be tailored to achieve that goal. I think winning and competition might play a role in that, and in such a way that the objectives of teams and of First are complementary. Think outside the walls.

[cglrcng]

Originally Posted by David Lame

Whom do we wish to inspire? Is it our own kids? I think they are already inspired. I think we want to inspire a world, not our own little corner of it.

From whom do we wish recognition? Each other? That's a rather shallow goal, isn't it? I think we want recognition from the world at large. I believe I read that Dean Kaman wants to see a world where scientists and engineers are looked up to the way athletes and entertainers are today. You don't get that by only talking to each other.

We want to make it loud. So loud that it is heard outside the stadium walls.

First Robotics should be tailored to achieve that goal. I think winning and competition might play a role in that, and in such a way that the objectives of teams and of First are complementary. Think outside the walls.

_____________________

Because I have already accepted the fact that there will be 2 FIRST Championship(s) venue locations starting in 2017 (any personal disagreements or feelings now almost fully set aside), though work still needs to be done to determine Annual Champions by either acceptance of 2 Annual Championship Winning Alliances being Co-Champions, or the actual scheduling of a Playoff each year between the 2. (All that FIRST has so far said we can actually work toward helping to solve the issue of...Again, SEE Frank's Blog Post: "We're Listening"...).

To attempt to seek more than that (like splitting FLL/FTC & FRC apart into the 2 events as folks have suggested repeatedly, well, that contract ink is dried, 2 Championship promises were made to 2 different cities, venues, & politicians alike...USFIRST and every members names and reputations ride on those signatures now, for at least a few years), I now expect & realize is fairly foolhardy and simply a selfish dream, but a mission many will no doubt in my mind, set off on quite soon enough....(and that isn't meant to denigrate anyones dream or work), I can just read the handwriting on the wall, and Frank's plain black on white page writing very clearly). They are listening....Be very careful what you actually ask for.

I will say good luck to many on that mission, just remember please (to those willing to stand up at this very critical juncture, to lead & be counted on among the most vocal of the community group)...FIRST is about ALL the Teams participating from top to bottom in all FIRST programs (not just FRC), and the organization (and its very fast paced GROWTH), as a whole, and teams still not yet in existance.

The real reason we now face this particular FIRST Organizational GROWTH ISSUE (The ChampionSplit), is "FAST SUSTAINED GROWTH," and of that we should all be very proud that we all help create such issues, not shy away from them. We help create our own future COMPETITION. (And all the associated problems with very fast outgrowth of a single event venue...WOW!)

FIRST Worldwide is outgrowing easy capabillities of a single US Host city serving our World Championships (in basic Hotel Room & Venue Space), wherein less than 1/4 of all "Active FRC Teams" may participate in a single combined Annual Championship event. (Any idea how many organizations today would absolutely love to have that problem? Many today are shrinking, not growing).

Think about that just a minute. Think about humble beginnings. And in a single lifetime, a mere couple of decades is all it took. Talk about metoric beginnings.

It is not about any particular individual team dreams of extending their collection of pretty blue banners and associated titles. In fact, the recent decisions have doubled the availability of both. (Just not a unified single title as of yet! Though the option still exists...See "We're Listening"). While that option was listed, not many other options were. Remember that also please.

Decisions made now, will also affect those teams we wish & work hard together to help create soon, and far off into the future, grow, and foster for years to come. And, those recently created & inspired to continue on with us.

Let's never (even in instant anger or disagreement), again hear or type quick words of abandonment (words Frank so kindly labeled as Extreme Passion), over changes deemed necessary by the organization because they may disagree with our direct personal goals....Attempt to reach across the aisle and understand the how's & why's, and why we may not have been asked for our personal opinions and feedback (directly stated we wouldn't be, in an August 2014 Blog Posting that many must have missed), before said decisions were made. (In simple terms....While I may agree with your feelings....Time to "JUST, GET OVER IT!", and begin working on reasonable solutions to existing problems).
_____________________
So, now there will be 2 sets of ultra vibrating stadium walls that we will be able to make it really loud at. Two geographic areas quite far enough apart from each other, from which we need to hope to, work toward, and begin to draw new & old fans alike from, into the two (2) very unique events.

Spreading the word that FIRST is coming to a city near you for THE CHAMPIONSHIPS, just became twice as easy! (Cast those nets far and wide, and draw them in). Make more lifelong members of FIRST. And, MAKE THOSE WALLS VIBRATE...Be HEARD & SEEN outside them also. Make It LOUD!

INSPIRE & RECOGNIZE!

For INSPIRATION & RECOGNITION of Science & Technology.

It was right there in the name all along. (Both are the supreme mission).

Why are some actually upset at Double the Inspiration, Double the Recognition? Every member and non-member of FIRST needs to be AWE INSPIRED by visiting FIRST Champ's. once in their lifetime, as a competitor or as a visitor, or a volunteer.

Guaranteed, they will return...And, if so....We will soon need more & larger venues. (FIRST isn't yet in the CITY BUILDING BUSINESS...Just Yet!)

You will be hard pressed to find a better place to be INSPIRED toward STEM, and/or RECOGNIZED for great onfield /off-field FIRST achievments!

[SoulianPride]

Our team is all about: “Excelling in the building of better people in a better community by becoming leaders in building a foundation for STEM education and careers.”

Our mission statement since we first created our business plan has not changed because our views on the program have not.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by Sam_Mills

To be inspired by the act of competing, do you not have to be competing for something? Even if only bragging rights, there's little glory in winning a half championship. The OP says the act of competing should be enough to be inspirational, and I contest that with no real winner, there is no real competition.

Going to quote myself because I don't want to type it all again:

Originally Posted by efoote868

Is a regional win today worth less today because there are more regional competitions and more teams winning them? Is a district win today worth less because there are more districts?

Is a championship win 10 years ago worth more or less because a larger percentage of teams qualified? Can you even tell me who won the championship event 10 years ago?

The championship event has never been about hosting the most competitive robots all under one roof. Every year for my entire FRC career (and this year included with an expanded field), there has been a thread about the best teams not to make it to the championship event that year. If the goal was to get the best competition, the structure for invites would be different.

Winning an event with 400 teams is a HUGE accomplishment, on par with winning any championship event in previous years. Having two sets of winners, in my opinion, does not diminish the achievement in the slightest.

However under this new format there are solutions to get the final co-champions to play against one another. If that is the singular concern, I would argue the fix is trivial.

Having read the majority of the posts in other threads, I think that is not the only concern and I think other concerns are more difficult to address, such as allowing Michigan teams to mix with Texas teams in a reasonable/fair way. Bringing the winners of the North and South together does not address that in any way.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by efoote868

Having read the majority of the posts in other threads, I think that is not the only concern and I think other concerns are more difficult to address, such as allowing Michigan teams to mix with Texas teams in a reasonable/fair way. Bringing the winners of the North and South together does not address that in any way.

I think this is the rub of a lot of "issues" with the last two major "WE'RE DOING THIS" announcements. (That would be FiM District Pilot, circa 2008 offseason, and ChampionSplit, currently under discussion.)

For whatever reason, FIRSTers are in general a friendly bunch--we like to meet new people, steal ideas from new places, push a few boundaries, borrow tools from each other regardless of location, and go to restaurants en masse in brightly-colored shirts. But on more than one occasion, FIRST has essentially said "You can only play with [and, by extension, do the above list with] teams in YOUR area unless the folks from elsewhere come to you". One of the best moves in the history of the district system was the cross-district play this season--the real best one will come when non-district teams can play in a district on some basis.

Blocking out teams from playing with other teams by any means other than "the registration at this event is full, oh and they get two events so they didn't want to come anyway" prevents teams from exchanging ideas that are often difficult to translate to online media. This can tend to turn robots in one area of the country into "type-a" and another area into "type-b" because those areas really only get inspiration via the robots they see... This isn't exactly a good thing.

There are ways to deal with this, mind you. Exactly what they might possibly be I leave as an exercise to the reader.

[David Lame]

In my opinion, the phrase "world championship" is pretty loud all by itself, but that is only one consideration out of many that goes into how to structure a season for FRC.

However, the focus on winning is something else entirely. I think it's vital. One of our mentors invited a couple of members of our local city council to our last district event this year. They had never seen an event, and didn't know what to expect. High school kids. Robots. Some sort of science fair-ish sort of thing, maybe?

Instead they got First Robotics, and they were blown away, just like I was last year when I stumbled onto First. And what was it that was so mind blowing? It was the passion, the intensity. The amazing cheer that went up when....a can with a noodle in it was placed on a stack of totes!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the crowd goes wild!!!!!!!!!!!!

That intensity makes us what we are, and it's fueled by a desire to win, and it's something that inspires not just our teams, but the rest of the community that we really want to inspire.

As with every high school sport, we have to balance our desire to win with the more important goal of teaching important life lessons to our kids who participate, especially among the teams who are not destined to take home the blue banners, but the desire to win is a very important part of First.

[Sunshine]

We do not pursue awards, we pursue greatness and the awards follow.

One of my students came up with the above verbiage a few years ago. It has stuck with my team ever since. We attempt to inspire all students to be the best they can be using the robot build season to accomplish those goals. The competition is just one part of the complex puzzle called FIRST but a very important one. As an example, we don't do year round outreach programs just because we want to be world champions. And truth be known, less than 1/2 of our students are involved with the actual building and driving of our bot. Yet close to 40 have been showing up 3 times a week for the last 14 weeks. Why? Because they are all inspired. So, like my students themselves, the answer is complex and not easily defined. They have all found unity, family and purpose through their FIRST experience. And they continue with their excitement because they are all going to the "world" championship. They are proud to tell parents and sponsors that they will be competing against teams from 10 different countries.

For me, as drive coach and founder of the team, I want to see them win because it prolongs the season and the experience. Because I know like all of you that it's the journey not the destination. And I want the journey to last forever. Because I know that as long as they all have that common goal they all learn and grow together. That is the essence of who we are and why we are here.

But rest assured, when you see us in St. Louis our immediate goal is to beat you, get to Einstein and be world winners. I'm not ashamed to say that. It's okay to want to get to the top. And in this case, get to the top of the world. My kids will never have that opportunity again once they leave. And yes, it is a little less inspirational to win a conference than to win a world title. Pursuing greatness has its benefits and being known as world champions is one of them.

For what it's worth, As a side note. My team has been very fortunate to win the world safety award at championship twice. I have heard conversations from students, parents, mentors and alumni that those recognitions will always mean more than a divisional award. Are they wrong? Nope. As I tried stating earlier, it's not a black and white easy answer. It's very complex just like our students. Wouldn't want it any other way.

We do not pursue awards, we pursue greatness and the awards follow.

[346CADmen]

Many opinions to be had regarding this subject. How your team runs and what success (as defined by your team) are driving forces for sure.
As a mentor, the inspiration issue, getting students interested in STEM is why I’m aboard. Besides I work with a great group and enjoy the program overall.
Yes I think the competition is a big part. It too motivates on many levels.
I do wonder for all who are interested in the one world champ theme if they would agree, you should make it by your play with your robot that year. If it’s all about the one world champion robot, why accept teams based on being good rookies or having won an award or being a HOF? If you want to determine the best robot only score should count right.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by 346CADmen

If it’s all about the one world champion robot, why accept teams based on being good rookies or having won an award or being a HOF? If you want to determine the best robot only score should count right.

Simple answer
For many there are important competitions going on both on and off the field. The list is long and includes world chairman award, for us it used to be world safety award etc etc etc. Recognition by your peers isn't a bad thing.

[philso]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

We do not pursue awards, we pursue greatness and the awards follow.

This works in life outside of FIRST too.

[346CADmen]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Simple answer
For many there are important competitions going on both on and off the field. The list is long and includes world chairman award, for us it used to be world safety award etc etc etc. Recognition by your peers isn't a bad thing.

I think we are like minded here for the most part. The idea of THE World Championship is inspirational in many ways. Our team makeup sounds much like yours SUNSHINE.
And while I am hesitant to accept the change FIRST has put in place for some reasons, accept it I will. What would opinion be if the two championships were divided by those who are seeking recognition for their efforts toward FIRST goals (re AWARDS) and those competing only with the bot for this year’s game? Sorry a bit of pot stirring here, but it is an opinion and idea’s thread.

[SoulianPride]

I'd like to see the possibility of you CHOOSING which championship you go to. I feel like this would resolve the issue of wanting to meet other teams while giving teams with less-funding the ability to travel to closer events and allows for more teams to qualify for the Championships.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by waialua359

FRC=FIRST Robotics Competition
FIRST=For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology

I'll piggyback on waialua359's earlier post.

If you are competing to earn top honors in FIRST, you are explicitly competing to earn a Chairmans Award, and only implicitly (or as a side project) (or not at all) striving to earn a Tournament Champion award.

The top honor teams compete to earn in the FIRST Robotics Competition is not the Tournament Champion award.

So, Yes, FRC is a competition (a competition aka a "coopertition"), and the way you become one of that competition's winners is by earning one of the FRC Chairmans Awards.

If you are going to complain, at least complain about FIRST planning to give out more than one of their most important award (but before you do it, ask yourself if complaining about that makes much sense).

Is there anything, unclear, inconsistent, or incorrect about what I have written here? Does it misrepresent what FRC is?

If not, can we stop bickering about whether future seasons will have one, or two, or more Tournament Champions? Please? The number of Tournament Champions is interesting, but crowning a single Tournament Champion (alliance) is explicitly not FIRST's purpose.

Blake

[DonShaw]

If First really wants to inspire kids then get the adults off the drive teams unless it is a small team or special needs team.

I see way to many adults getting involved in areas that need to be off limits and should be for kids only.

Best memory of Palmetto Regional was from team 1533 and the petition for Mentors.

Motivate
Educate,but
No
Touching
Our
Robot

Kudos to them I hope they send First the petition results.