New York Districts?

[Kevin Leonard]

Personally I prefer the whole state become one district. Most NYC/Long Island Teams won't need to come to DCMP, and the ones that do can be accommodated for or decline the invitation. Teams aren't required to attend DCMP, after all. Regardless of whether they attend DCMP, teams will be getting double the competition for the same amount of money.

I think the only three locations that could be considered for a district championship are Syracuse, Albany, and New York City. All three have their share of issues. I think Albany would make the most sense due to its central location for all teams in the state. With the great support from local companies like GE and GlobalFoundries, as well as maybe support from FIRST HQ, its possible we might be able to subsidize or at least help the teams with less resources be able to travel to the district championship if they qualify.

If this one isn't possible, either of the other two discussed options are fine as well. New York could really use districts as soon as possible. Some fantastic teams are missing out on a championship because they didn't win, and some others are struggling, barely able to attend one event. Districts would help solve both of these problems, as well as make the state mor competitive on a global scale.

[Dominick Ferone]

While Albany has a nice regional it is a little cramped as it is at RPI. Possibly having district champs in Syracuse at the dome? I'm not to fully sure about the venue but it could be big enough. Or on long island you could use Nassau Coliseum possibly since I know there is an underground tunnel connecting to the Marriott and possibly another center.

Also i just noticed on the map either were not represented,misrepresented or I don't know where Utica is on the map. But it does show just how spread out upper New York is and something that can be fixed in the future.

[cgodzyk]

Originally Posted by Hallry

Man I feel bad for that one team far up north...

We actually have two teams up here, 229 and 5240, they're on top of one another, so its not just one team!

[AGPapa]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

Also i just noticed on the map either were not represented,misrepresented or I don't know where Utica is on the map. But it does show just how spread out upper New York is and something that can be fixed in the future.

Good catch, there was a problem with the map website that I was using. Here's a new map from a different website. It shows a lot more teams throughout the middle of the state.

Originally Posted by cgodzyk

We actually have two teams up here, 229 and 5240, they're on top of one another, so its not just one team!

This is right, both teams are listed as being from "Potsdam" so their markers are on top of each other. This probably happens in a few other areas too, most notably in NYC. There are probably more teams in the city than this map will show because of that. With such a ridiculously huge number of teams in that area, it seems crazy to not have the DCMP there.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

A train from nyc to Albany costs $42 each way each day. That's 84 dollars per person not to mention that its a 2 and a half hour ride(that's 5 hours of train time per day) it's a logistical nightmare.

I wouldn't even have considered trying to do it as a daily commute. Is there a problem with staying overnight? Unless there's something I don't know about lodging costs in Albany, that shouldn't be nearly as expensive as taking the train twice a day.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I wouldn't even have considered trying to do it as a daily commute. Is there a problem with staying overnight? Unless there's something I don't know about lodging costs in Albany, that shouldn't be nearly as expensive as taking the train twice a day.

think about it

I stay in albany often for gymnastics and my dad is up there extremely often (hes the president of his union)

A standard 3 star hotel room is 120 dollars per night. One room fits 4 people

2 over nights plus 2 ways on the train

Thats $140 dollars per student plus meals.

You have a moderately sized team with 20 students and 2 mentors thats

$3,080

and thats without renting a U-Haul add $400 ish (for a 10 foot truck).

So for a single event a low budget team needs to drop $3,500 dollars just to go back and forth to a single event. To some teams that may not seem like too much but speaking for some nyc teams thats their budget.

I hear the talk about having it in albany yes geographically that makes sense

However if you look at density ny long island blows everywhere else out of the park. Also teams upsate have no issues with parents not driving (for the most part) Yes it sucks for those wierd out of area teams but the harder audience and the ones with bigger issues are the nyc teams.

Not to mention that NYC is a cool place to go to a competition.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

A train from nyc to Albany costs $42 each way each day. That's 84 dollars per person not to mention that its a 2 and a half hour ride(that's 5 hours of train time per day) it's a logistical nightmare. A nyc event at the javits center (without ftc fll and jr fll you could fit multiple fields and hundreds of teams in there) would make more Sense for the masses but isn't the greatest for the upstate teams even if they are the technical minority.

I would suggest you take a good hard look at the PNW District model before proclaiming that it won't work for NY...

Money isn't easy to come by for most teams outside of Western Seattle and some locations in Portland. Further, we have a much bigger geographic region than NY AND our DCMP was located at an extreme in Chaney Washington this year. We drove 8 hours for the District Championship and we are located in the northern(ish) part of Oregon (though we are one of the southern most teams in the region),


In the end, districts allows you and your team to get more play for the same amount of money. Plus the potential for an event of much higher quality than a regional AND a somewhat easier way to make it to worlds. So before you say something else along the lines of "you couldn't travel to Rochester because of a 5 hour daily commute" please put some thought into it. For that to work, you would have to leave at 4:30am, and would return to NYC at 10:30pm (if you leave at 8)... 5-6 hours before you have to leave again.... hardly logical.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

think about it

[snip]

That single event you are referencing would ONLY be for the DCMP (and probably not at an extreme ie. Rochester) if you are from LI or NYC.... An invitational event that you AREN'T required to attend(nor is your entire team). Some of the normal district events would inevitably be located near LI or NYC.

Please get educated on districts before telling those of us in them to "think about" why they don't work for poorer teams.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

I would suggest you take a good hard look at the PNW District model before proclaiming that it won't work for NY...

Money isn't easy to come by for most teams outside of Western Seattle and some locations in Portland. Further, we have a much bigger geographic region than NY AND our DCMP was located at an extreme in Chaney Washington this year. We drove 8 hours for the District Championship and we are located in the northern(ish) part of Oregon (though we are one of the southern most teams in the region),


In the end, districts allows you and your team to get more play for the same amount of money. Plus the potential for an event of much higher quality than a regional AND a somewhat easier way to make it to worlds. So before you say something else along the lines of "you couldn't travel to Rochester because of a 5 hour daily commute" please put some thought into it. For that to work, you would have to leave at 4:30am, and would return to NYC at 9:30am... 6-7 hours before you have to leave again.... hardly logical.

rochester is 8-9 hours away from the nyc long island area so thats not really a thing to do in a day let alone a good area for a dcmp. Albany is different but whatever.

To clarify Im not saying the model wouldnt work. Im simply stating that the dcmp should most definitely be in nyc. New york needs the district model but its a complicated area. NYCFirst and SBPLI would probably work together to do a lower state dcmp and that is a power team of hardworking volunteers. The Javits center would be perfect for a dcmp. First of all its right in the middle of nyc. Penn station is in walking distance which means all the long island and nyc would be set for transportation right away. Theres also much more press attention in NYC. getting first on things like the today show while dcmps are there or good morning america are very viable things.


I understand the district model to an extent. Im just stating the challenges with ny a place I have lived my whole life. I have lived up state I have lived in nyc and I live in Long island I know this state the people, the teams, and the challenges that come with it.

Im sorry for saying think about it (when reading it sounds harsh didnt mean it to be)

[Dominick Ferone]

1) The argument of distance if it were in Rochester you could always fly there.
2) NYC while yes it does hold a big regional each year, it has also been highly known to have field issues.
3) If a lot of teams from upstate came for district champs in the city hotel prices would be astronomical.
4) Syracuse can end up being only a 4 hour drive from the island.(if your leaving from around Nassau Suffolk border.)

For champs we would need a big place to hold it. Currently New York makes up about 5% of all first team. (its very close in size to PWN) So that means about 60 teams would go to champs.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

For champs we would need a big place to hold it. Currently New York makes up about 5% of all first team. (its very close in size to PWN) So that means about 60 teams would go to champs.

I have gone to nyc the last 2 years this year wasnt in it but helped out other teams. and never noticed any field issues. I think I know what your talking about though as some of our mentors and alumni have talked about some sitatuon where there was a big field glitch and they had people come in for extensive testing. Its all fixed now from what I have seen.

NYC would be the place imo to host a dcmp as I have said maybe not the javits center. Places in queens are much more afordable. St.Johns University comes to mind in queens they have huge sports facilities and could comfortably host a 60 team regional. Even hoftstra (sbpli) hosted a 51 team event complete with full 10x10 pits, a practice field, and media areas.

What im wondering now is if first is really looking into this or if this is pure speculation

[Insanity000]

Because of such a dense population of teams in NYC i would propose NYC being their own district, or maybe even combine with New Jersey. This solves many issues for the NYC Long Island teams like travel cost, distance etc. For venues though im not quite sure how well that would work out but im sure it could be figured out.

As for upstate teams, why not have them join with a smaller state/state with less teams to create a district. For example i don't believe upstate alone has enough teams to be a district and neither do many of the surrounding team. If upstate combined with Pennsylvania, Ohio, or west Virginia that would be enough for a district.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Thats $140 dollars per student plus meals.

Yep, that sounds reasonable. As I thought, it's a whole lot less than the $250+ for transportation you seemed to be balking at when Albany was first suggested.

Maybe I'm out of touch, but spending $140 (plus food) to attend a three-day out of town competition seems fine to me. Your students should be able to do that much fundraising for their own benefit.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

Yep, that sounds reasonable. As I thought, it's a whole lot less than the $250+ for transportation you seemed to be balking at when Albany was first suggested.

Maybe I'm out of touch, but spending $140 (plus food) to attend a three-day out of town competition seems fine to me. Your students should be able to do that much fundraising for their own benefit.

And remember, this is only for the teams that qualify and decide to go. 5027 recently did a GoFundMe campaign to raise funds for the world championship and raised something like $20,000.
If the students don't want to raise the money to go to the District Championships, they don't have to.

That being said, something like 2/3 of all teams in New York are located in the city or on Long Island, so an NYC district championships makes a lot of sense in some ways.

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

While Albany has a nice regional it is a little cramped as it is at RPI. Possibly having district champs in Syracuse at the dome? I'm not to fully sure about the venue but it could be big enough. Or on long island you could use Nassau Coliseum possibly since I know there is an underground tunnel connecting to the Marriott and possibly another center.

There are other venues near Albany, heck RPI has other venues that could host a larger competition. My personal choice would be the Times Union Center (formerly known as the Pepsi Arena). It's plenty large enough to hold the state championship for years to come.

It's also a mile away from an Amtrak station.

Regardless of what plan we choose to take, planning committees and regional FIRST advocates should come together to discuss a plan for the state's transition to districts- sooner rather than later.

[Dominick Ferone]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I have gone to nyc the last 2 years this year wasnt in it but helped out other teams. and never noticed any field issues. I think I know what your talking about though as some of our mentors and alumni have talked about some sitatuon where there was a big field glitch and they had people come in for extensive testing. Its all fixed now from what I have seen.

Back in 2012 and 2013 we experienced quite a few issues. We had to replay 2 or 3 matches and they even had everyone shut down their smart dashboard and disabled cameras if i remember correctly, which hurt many teams.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

What im wondering now is if first is really looking into this or if this is pure speculation

What I heard is the possibility of having most areas district by 2017.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

Please get educated on districts before telling those of us in them to "think about" why they don't work for poorer teams.

Everybody who wants to make serious proposals about NY making a transition to districts should read the entire District Planning Guide thoroughly. It contains all the guidelines FIRST HQ gives to a region when they want to move to districts. I'll try and hit some of the main points

Money
When a region goes to districts, they need to make their own organizational entity (for example, NEFIRST is part of ingenuityNE, a 501(c)(3) created for the purpose of operating New England districts). This organization is responsible for planning and paying for everything a district does (it'll own full field(s), other assets, and pay for the competitions). Think of it as a regional planning committee on steroids. Third event registration fees go entirely to the district, but the organization has to fundraise everything else (support from HQ is minimal, especially after the first year).

Events are recommended to have a total budget of ~25,000 (as compared to ~150,000 for a regional (see Regional Planning Guide, budget section). This is a substantial decrease in costs - especially compared to the NYC Regional, which I've heard costs upwards of $500,000 to put on. There's a reason that (I'd say) the majority of district venues are donated or heavily subsidized - budgets are much tighter and FIRST HQ provides much less assistance. One of the most important parts here is having a strong sponsor/team base who can secure and help plan venue costs.

The district championship is planned like a regional, with a corresponding budget. For a district with 8 events and a championship, you're looking at over $300,000 in event costs (not even factoring in the fact that NYC events will inevitably be more expensive than average). Then factor in other asset investments - a 10 event district needs to own, store, and transport two full fields, a new set of carpet for each event (and transportation of each new set of carpet to the venue), plus the many other little things you need. A field costs ~20,000 for the perimeter, ~2,500 for the plastics, plus all the electronics (can't find data for that, but I'd guess ~10,000). Point is, it all adds up and gets very expensive very quickly.

Events
You need to have enough events spots to ensure that every team can register for 2 (with each event small enough to guarantee 12 matches/team). The sweet spot is typically around 40 teams per event. They should occur in venues with reasonable cost (see above) and be close to as many teams as possible. This is the major problem for NY because it has pockets of high team density, and these pockets are pretty spread out. That means there needs to be smart planning when deciding the size of the districts and location of events. A full state district would probably need 10 events, split evenly between the pockets of teams.

Volunteers
This is probably the most overlooked part. It takes a lot of manpower to run one event, let alone 10. There are a number of key roles that require training beforehand and there's a limit on the number of experienced people to fill those roles. If there aren't enough people to staff events, you can't do districts (this is the current issue facing Minnesota).

tl;dr - There's a lot of components that go into making the transition to districts that you probably haven't thought about. It's a massive logistical and financial problem that requires significant effort to undertake. The people in charge of making the decisions are definitely aware of the desire to switch and are trying to make it happen (and I've talked to some of them about it), but the fact no public announcements have been made means they haven't had real progress with these issues.

super tl;dr - Just read the district planning guide