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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-04-2015, 16:36
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

I'm kind of disappointed there was no field for "any other ideas for making 2 venues work?". I was looking for a place to endorse the "World Champs" and "World Festival" compromise, but then the survey was over
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Unread 17-04-2015, 16:42
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

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Originally Posted by nuclearnerd View Post
I'm kind of disappointed there was no field for "any other ideas for making 2 venues work?". I was looking for a place to endorse the "World Champs" and "World Festival" compromise, but then the survey was over
I mentioned that, in one way or another, in each of the comment boxes.
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Unread 17-04-2015, 17:30
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

I think the survey should have preceded the announcement. Folks it is a done deal contract have been signed and all they can do now is tweek any input on what to do at the two championships.

I keep hearing "First, the sport of the mind" from Dean and Woodie so set the events up like sports do. Yes it is great to involve more kids but do not dilute a championship. They should have looked at something like this:
1) District event
2) State event
3) Regional event
4) National event
5) World Event

Even maybe a US national event and a International event followed by a World event. Look how Little League Baseball does the Little League World series.

Can somebody explain to travel cost are going to be reduce for a team from Israel, Turkey or Australia have their travel reduced by the proposed cities?

They have expanded Worlds this year by 250 teams and diluted the event in my mind as far as competition of quality robots, yes more kids involved. Is this a money issue maybe, lets see how we can get more money by adding teams more events?

Kids like to win at high levels of competition in sports, debate clubs, music competitions, programming competitions, computer games and even in FRC Robotics believe it or not. First needs to understand this and if they do not the need to see reality when watching an event.

This is a bad decision and bad timing for the survey.

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They got it wrong.

Last edited by DonShaw : 17-04-2015 at 18:31.
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Unread 17-04-2015, 17:44
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

Here's a question I would have liked to see:
In the years 2017+, it will be much easier for us to select the size of championships because the district model will be much more widespread. Assuming another level of competition is not added, what percentage of FRC teams do you believe should qualify for championships in the years 2017-2020?

I think that many of the problems people have with the championsplit relate back to this question. FIRST seems to believe that 25% of teams should attend championships. I personally think this is far too high, I would like it much more if it were 8-10% for 2017-2020.
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Unread 17-04-2015, 18:35
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell View Post
The best time for FIRST to have sent out this survey would have been a year ago (or more).

The second best time is today.

Hopefully lots of people respond! (and yes it's okay to disagree with the hivemind)
I agree this survey is very late, but better than never. A quick tally should be possible before next Thursday.

Perhaps a comparable survey will be sent to volunteers? The results from such a survey would be fairly predictable, though: volunteers would not favor two events, meeting familiar individuals and teams is very important, external attractions are not very important and travel expenses are a significant factor.
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  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-04-2015, 19:47
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonShaw View Post
They have expanded Worlds this year by 250 teams and diluted the event in my mind as far as competition of quality robots, yes more kids involved. Is this a money issue maybe, lets see how we can get more money by adding teams more events?
How can you say Champs was diluted this year when not a single match has been played. The total number of FRC teams grows every year. And, as has been pointed out several times, the actual percentage of teams attending Championships has been shrinking. If anything, that would mean Champs is more competitive this year than last.

As for money, the 5-tier approach you suggested adds costs too. If you assume a $5,000 fee for each level, That would mean a team hoping to go all the way would need $25,000 in registration fees alone. I'd imagine that's more than most teams would spend on an entire season.

Though I will say it brings up an interesting point. Has FIRST ever taken a team budget survey? I know this can be a touchy subject, but it would likely help guide the goal of making champs more accessible and affordable.
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Unread 17-04-2015, 20:17
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

Quote:
Originally Posted by grstex View Post
Has FIRST ever taken a team budget survey?
Yes, it's actually an entry in TIMS for each team.
$22K was the average team expense in 2013
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Unread 17-04-2015, 21:18
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonShaw View Post
I think the survey should have preceded the announcement. Folks it is a done deal contract have been signed and all they can do now is tweek any input on what to do at the two championships.

I keep hearing "First, the sport of the mind" from Dean and Woodie so set the events up like sports do. Yes it is great to involve more kids but do not dilute a championship. They should have looked at something like this:
1) District event
2) State event
3) Regional event
4) National event
5) World Event

Even maybe a US national event and a International event followed by a World event. Look how Little League Baseball does the Little League World series.

Can somebody explain to travel cost are going to be reduce for a team from Israel, Turkey or Australia have their travel reduced by the proposed cities?

They have expanded Worlds this year by 250 teams and diluted the event in my mind as far as competition of quality robots, yes more kids involved. Is this a money issue maybe, lets see how we can get more money by adding teams more events?

Kids like to win at high levels of competition in sports, debate clubs, music competitions, programming competitions, computer games and even in FRC Robotics believe it or not. First needs to understand this and if they do not the need to see reality when watching an event.

This is a bad decision and bad timing for the survey.

Shoot, aim, ready not ready, aim fire!

They got it wrong.
~$18,000-$25,000 is way way too much in registration fees. Who is going to pay for all that?

Also imagine a scenario in which nationals and the southern regional took place in Atlanta for instance. That's 3-5 state districts, 1 state championship, a regional championship, and a US championship. You want to talk about volunteer and mentor burnout? Not to mention getting out of school and work. Gas money, food money, spare parts, hotels, etc. That many tiers is not sustainable.

We started the season with around 8,300 cash. How on earth would we get another ~12,000 to pay for that many competitions and still build a robot and put gas in the cars? Everyone doesn't have a +$20,000 budget.
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Unread 17-04-2015, 21:47
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

I'm definitely on team "I want only one championship", but I thought the survey was very fair and quite well written. I applaud FIRST for doing this.

If I were to predict what the company line will be at the town hall meeting, here it is:

1) "The response from the survey was that the community would prefer a single championship event such that it is a true championship"

2) "Sometimes change is hard. People thought alliances were a bad idea at first, and there were a lot of people against districts at first. But now those are well accepted in FIRST.

3) "Therefore we're going to stick with the plan for now. We'll pilot the dual championships for 3 years and re-assess everyone's opinion after giving it a try."
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Unread 17-04-2015, 23:10
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

Can I just childishly sit here and after putting in my thoughts on the 2 championship things, it asked to put in my team number and it wouldnt let me put in all 6 of mine. I feel slighted. (Im from a team with 3 separate numbers, then I coach 3 up north)

#FIRSTworldproblems
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Unread 17-04-2015, 23:22
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

I'm glad they are asking for feedback. However, surveys can be tricky things to interpret. The way the questions are asked definitely influences the manner in which they are answered.

I don't have extremely strong feelings about how season finale events ought to be structured. There are many, many, factors to consider. I want something spectacular, and I want something affordable. I want something that showcases the best of First, and I want it accessible to as many people as possible. These desires are very difficult to balance, and may even be mutually exclusive, so no solution is perfect.

However, the one thing that really struck me about the survey was how it continued to focus on the Championship experience as if that experience were limited to those people who were physically present at the championships. Even the most inclusive vision of the season finale events has no more than 25% of First teams in attendance. I think the other 75% matter too. This is the 21st century. You don't have to be in the same room to be part of the same experience.

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Unread 17-04-2015, 23:42
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonShaw View Post
I think the survey should have preceded the announcement. Folks it is a done deal contract have been signed and all they can do now is tweek any input on what to do at the two championships.

I keep hearing "First, the sport of the mind" from Dean and Woodie so set the events up like sports do. Yes it is great to involve more kids but do not dilute a championship. They should have looked at something like this:
1) District event
2) State event
3) Regional event
4) National event
5) World Event

Even maybe a US national event and a International event followed by a World event. Look how Little League Baseball does the Little League World series.

Can somebody explain to travel cost are going to be reduce for a team from Israel, Turkey or Australia have their travel reduced by the proposed cities?

They have expanded Worlds this year by 250 teams and diluted the event in my mind as far as competition of quality robots, yes more kids involved. Is this a money issue maybe, lets see how we can get more money by adding teams more events?

Kids like to win at high levels of competition in sports, debate clubs, music competitions, programming competitions, computer games and even in FRC Robotics believe it or not. First needs to understand this and if they do not the need to see reality when watching an event.

This is a bad decision and bad timing for the survey.

Shoot, aim, ready not ready, aim fire!

They got it wrong.
Wow, good luck convincing our school board to let the kids off of school that much! We would barely make it to the regional! Also, not sure how we are supposed to hold a state event with only 4 teams. And for a world event, do you realize how many events exist outside the US? Not very many. You would end up with a world event consisting of 20 teams.

As far as travel cost reducing, I do remember folks complaining that flying into St. Louis is much more expensive than other US cities. I.e. the travel cost went up for PNW teams when we moved from Atlanta to St. Louis because of airfare. I'm not sure how Detroit and Dallas play into that, though.

I get what you are saying, but in the current state of FIRST, that wouldn't work either. Maybe 10 or 20 years from now. It seems like either FIRST is moving towards a "super-regional" model, or this is their **temporary solution as districts expand and FRC and FTC keep vastly expanding. They needed some wiggle room while districts are in the process of becoming universal. And after that point, maybe one championship would be an option again.

Diluted competition this year? You realize that the 400-team championship is actually much larger than it used to be? It has grown from just a couple hundred to 400 in the 2000s. Did that dilute the competition? Expanding the championship by 200 teams has been done before. And while I wasn't there in the 200-team championship era, I do know people that were. And they never said "gee, I wish there were much fewer teams here this year, because the competition is much more dilute than it was 15 years ago."

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearnerd View Post
I'm kind of disappointed there was no field for "any other ideas for making 2 venues work?". I was looking for a place to endorse the "World Champs" and "World Festival" compromise, but then the survey was over
I mentioned this multiple times in the comment boxes. Go take the survey again and advocate for that!!
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Unread 18-04-2015, 03:26
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

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Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint View Post
I just took the survey, most of the questions seem to be leading to a predefined result of the experience being more important than the actual competition. They only have a couple that actually ask about being around the best teams.
Agreed. The survey seemed to have questions that resulted in a pre-determined result.

No where in the survey did it ask about cost, logistics, student absences. Frank, or those that wrote the survey, dropped the ball. It seems that FIRST is just fishing for results that they can use to justify their agenda.

*Disappointed*
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Unread 18-04-2015, 03:31
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

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Originally Posted by Chris Hibner View Post
I'm definitely on team "I want only one championship", but I thought the survey was very fair and quite well written. I applaud FIRST for doing this.

If I were to predict what the company line will be at the town hall meeting, here it is:

1) "The response from the survey was that the community would prefer a single championship event such that it is a true championship"

2) "Sometimes change is hard. People thought alliances were a bad idea at first, and there were a lot of people against districts at first. But now those are well accepted in FIRST.

3) "Therefore we're going to stick with the plan for now. We'll pilot the dual championships for 3 years and re-assess everyone's opinion after giving it a try."
I am surprised at your response. To me it seemed that the survey was constructed with questions that only helped to support the decisions that were already determined. Maybe I was too pessimistic - but the survey seemed to slant in the way of trying to justify the fore coming structure of FIRST.

To each their own!
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Unread 18-04-2015, 04:30
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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Please give us your feedback on FIRST Announcement of 2 Champions

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Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog View Post
I am surprised at your response. To me it seemed that the survey was constructed with questions that only helped to support the decisions that were already determined. Maybe I was too pessimistic - but the survey seemed to slant in the way of trying to justify the fore coming structure of FIRST.

To each their own!
What about the question where it asked you to rank your support of the two championships plan from 1-10, where 1 indicated that you "Strongly Oppose 2 Championships"?

I certainly agree with the sentiment that this survey is at least a year too late, but I don't necessarily think it was written with an outright bias.
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