Building Out a Workshop

[Cory]

Originally Posted by mman1506

HSMworks told me that the will be adding the full version to the autodesk student site making it free for teams.

It's already free. You just have to do some legwork to get in touch with a rep and get licenses.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by Cory

It's already free. You just have to do some legwork to get in touch with a rep and get licenses.

We've been doing that for the past few years. It usually takes a while (2-6 months) and the licence they give us only allows for one installation. Autodesk education makes it a one click download.

I think people overestimate the necessity of 3D CAM for frc, we've never found the need to do anything that HSMexpress couldn't handle.

[Mike Marandola]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Any ideas on how to learn to use these tools should we buy them? Whether a lathe, a CNC, milling machine, or whatever, we don't have any mentors with experience using these tools.
Example: Off the top of my head, I can't figure out what I would do with a lathe that I couldn't do with a drill press and a bit of patience. Based on the posts, there's obviously something else they're good for.
Are there any on-line tutorials that cover use of these tools, or will each turn into a high-priced coat rack unless we find a local person who can teach us to operate it?

As far as machining, these are some of my favorite Youtube channels that I've learned a lot from:
-Abom79
-Tom Lipton
-Tubalcain
-Keith Fenner
-Keith Rucker
-Arduinoversusevil (not machining centric but hilarious)

Also, here are some decent resources from MIT: Overview and videos

[Jared]

Originally Posted by mman1506

We've been doing that for the past few years. It usually takes a while (2-6 months) and the licence they give us only allows for one installation. Autodesk education makes it a one click download.

I think people overestimate the necessity of 3D CAM for frc, we've never found the need to do anything that HSMexpress couldn't handle.

We spent quite a bit of time before the season started getting HSMWorks license for all of our computers through autodesk education. Eventually, somebody emailed us a code that we could use many times, but it won't work unless the same user logs in on the same computer to use HSMWorks.

The HSMExpress still comes with adaptive clearing/pocketing feature and the same set of post processors, so there's almost no reason to go after HSMWorks.

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Any ideas on how to learn to use these tools should we buy them? Whether a lathe, a CNC, milling machine, or whatever, we don't have any mentors with experience using these tools.
Example: Off the top of my head, I can't figure out what I would do with a lathe that I couldn't do with a drill press and a bit of patience. Based on the posts, there's obviously something else they're good for.
Are there any on-line tutorials that cover use of these tools, or will each turn into a high-priced coat rack unless we find a local person who can teach us to operate it?

http://www.instructables.com/files/o...2PEP282ORF.pdf

or South Bend's how to run a lathe.

[pmangels17]

I second Jared entirely. South Bend's How to Run a Lathe is definitively the best single source for instruction on lathes. The link below links to some free online PDF versions, and there are newer copies available online. The book literally explains everything about lathes.

http://makezine.com/2011/11/16/the-s...lathe-library/

[popnbrown]

Thank you for all the great tips. Here's a few follow up questions and things that I've been thinking about. If you feel very strongly about your recommendation and I have not included it let me know, so we can talk.

Follow up questions:
- My big question is does anyone have any recommendations as far as size? Clearly bigger is better, but I'm thinking about something around 450 to 500 sqft to be reasonable (I think I was looking at 30 x 18)
- Also what's the use of the compressed air line? When I was on the high school team, we had one in the robotics room but I didn't see that we got much use of it.
- It's likely that we will be unable to get a garage door, as they re-did the end of the school (and actually removed a loading dock garage door). Do you think it's still possible to load in a floor-standing lathe (maybe...mill) through standard double doors?
- Power. Bringing in a 220 (or 240V) line, is it worth it? What would it be most used for? Estimated cost?
- I tried looking in the other threads but most everyone talks about mill/lathe/cnc recommendations. Anyone have recommendations for a good floor-standing drill press?


Things that will definitely be getting purchased/in the shop (if we get one):
- Re-vamp our hand-tool collection: Allen Key sets, Screwdriver sets, Socket Wrench set (anything else that is key for hand tools?)
- Floor-standing drill press
- Mobile benchtops for assembly
- Workbench lining the wall (with vises)
- Storage: small part shelving, tool shelving, handheld tool peg board, raw material stock rack
- Power: Definitely, ceiling (or wall) retractable extension cords
- Misc: Stools for mobile benchtops, 1 to 5 computers for work, cabinet for storage of paper/books/dry food, sink

[apb2390]

Thank you for all the great tips. Here's a few follow up questions and things that I've been thinking about. If you feel very strongly about your recommendation and I have not included it let me know, so we can talk.

Follow up questions:
- My big question is does anyone have any recommendations as far as size? Clearly bigger is better, but I'm thinking about something around 450 to 500 sqft to be reasonable (I think I was looking at 30 x 18)
- Also what's the use of the compressed air line? When I was on the high school team, we had one in the robotics room but I didn't see that we got much use of it.
- It's likely that we will be unable to get a garage door, as they re-did the end of the school (and actually removed a loading dock garage door). Do you think it's still possible to load in a floor-standing lathe (maybe...mill) through standard double doors?
- Power. Bringing in a 220 (or 240V) line, is it worth it? What would it be most used for? Estimated cost?
- I tried looking in the other threads but most everyone talks about mill/lathe/cnc recommendations. Anyone have recommendations for a good floor-standing drill press?


Things that will definitely be getting purchased/in the shop (if we get one):
- Re-vamp our hand-tool collection: Allen Key sets, Screwdriver sets, Socket Wrench set (anything else that is key for hand tools?)
- Floor-standing drill press
- Mobile benchtops for assembly
- Workbench lining the wall (with vises)
- Storage: small part shelving, tool shelving, handheld tool peg board, raw material stock rack
- Power: Definitely, ceiling (or wall) retractable extension cords
- Misc: Stools for mobile benchtops, 1 to 5 computers for work, cabinet for storage of paper/books/dry food, sink

An air line in the shop allows use of compressed air tools. The benefits of these are high power density and no need to recharge, while remaining relatively portable. An air riveter can be very handy for putting together any significant number of riveted joints, and is invaluable if you start doing lots of sheet metal construction.

WRT getting machines in - if you can mange to get a loading dock/garage door installed, it's ideal. However, in the event that you can't, there's not a lot of machines that you can't get through a set of double doors (provided they have no center post, or it can be removed). You can almost always find a way to get the machine through the door, be it removing the head assembly on a bridgeport and rolling it in on a high-cap dolly, or using an engine hoist to lift up a lathe to roll it in. It helps a lot if you have someone experienced with rigging or moving machinery to direct the process along.

You'll need a higher power drop for either of those machines, if they're of any reasonable size. I can almost guarantee your school has 240 volt power already, so it's a matter of getting a drop installed. Cost-wise, talk to whoever manages the contracting at the school.

For a drill press, you can get a decent Jet drill press in the ~$500-600 range. It's not a precision machine, and you have to treat it kindly, but it'll drill holes, and it'll be a rather robust machine for students to utilize. If you can find an old used one from a local machine shop, that's also a good choice, but be prepared to give it a little TLC to make it happy.

Good luck getting your shop together!

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by apb2390

An air line in the shop allows use of compressed air tools.

Ah ok. I think we're some time away from sheet metal. I was looking up videos of installing an internal compressed air system and it doesn't seem terrible.

there's not a lot of machines that you can't get through a set of double doors (provided they have no center post, or it can be removed).

Cool this is good news. It's just likely that the room will be put next to the computer lab which is in the middle of the school.

You'll need a higher power drop for either of those machines

Okay, I think it'll make sense to have this installed if this shop happens.

For a drill press, you can get a decent Jet drill press in the

Any reason why you are recommending this model? I've seen Jet in many shops and know they're a well-used brand.


Also do you have any suggestions for a bench-top or floor-standing bandsaw?

[apb2390]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

Any reason why you are recommending this model? I've seen Jet in many shops and know they're a well-used brand.


Also do you have any suggestions for a bench-top or floor-standing bandsaw?

I linked the Jet because it was the first thing to come to mind as a decent, robust floor-standing drill press, and is generally available semi-locally to a lot of US teams. JETs are also sold, often more cheaply, as Grizzly or KBC (I think there's a couple other rebrands, too) - be sure to look for that kind of tool at a cheaper price.

As far as a band saw goes, a good floor-standing 13 3/4" Delta (or equivalent Jet/Grizzly) can sometimes be had for $250-300 from Lowes or equivalent. Surprisingly, I hear the Harbor Freight 9" benchtop bandsaw or MSC/Northern equivalrnt is pretty good. It is harbor freight, though, so keep that in mind.

You might also consider a horizontal band saw, instead of (or in addition to) a vertical one. Horizontals are nicer for cutting thick materials and pieces with larger structural cross sections, and can cut longer sections off without having to waste material with angle cuts. Basically, anything you'd do with a hack saw is work best suited for a Horizontal. They're not suited for more delicate work, though - you can do a lot on a vertical bandsaw with a steady hand. Many horizontals can be changed to be vertical position, and come with a table for this use. Brand recommendations are the same.

Used band saws can be a good idea in some cases, if you can find a robust older machine. You can often get a hold of well-used but still-good band saws for a decent price - local auctions and repocast are the places to look. Keep in mind you might be getting into a little restoration work if you go that route, but it can be well worth it. I was spoiled... we got to use a wide-mouth bandsaw that looked something like this. The thing cuts like a dream, and has a mouth wide enough to accomodate any work you throw at it. Finding a machine like that (hopefully not that big) is a great pickup.

For all bandsaws, remember to get wood or soft material blades (large tooth) instead of metal blades for cutting aluminum - see here for why.

[popnbrown]

Originally Posted by apb2390

You might also consider a horizontal band saw...

We've actually got a chop saw, so I'm not sure we'd go this route for now. I think a vertical band saw would allow us to make cuts beyond straight cuts, hence the interest.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong or if you disagree.

[apb2390]

Originally Posted by popnbrown

We've actually got a chop saw, so I'm not sure we'd go this route for now. I think a vertical band saw would allow us to make cuts beyond straight cuts, hence the interest.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong or if you disagree.

Probably will want to for the vertical, then. You can do some nice angle and curve work in tube/small sheet on a vertical.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by apb2390

For all bandsaws, remember to get wood or soft material blades (large tooth) instead of metal blades for cutting aluminum - see here for why.

You do not want a wood blade for cutting aluminum...you just want the right tooth count/type. For aluminum a variable set/variable pitch blade is what you want. We use this one, from McMaster

[apb2390]

Originally Posted by Cory

You do not want a wood blade for cutting aluminum...you just want the right tooth count/type. For aluminum a variable set/variable pitch blade is what you want. We use this one, from McMaster

You're right, I used the wrong term for a coarse-tooth blade. I usually hear those called wood blades.

For what it's worth, McMaster does claim that their "Blades for Softwood" are appropriate for aluminum:

Originally Posted by McMaster

Blades for Softwood [...] They're also for use on soft metals such as aluminum.

Appreciate the correction.

[mman1506]

Originally Posted by apb2390

You're right, I used the wrong term for a coarse-tooth blade. I usually hear those called wood blades.

For what it's worth, McMaster does claim that their "Blades for Softwood" are appropriate for aluminum:

Appreciate the correction.

I believe the rule of thumb is that you should always have 2-10 teeth in contact with the metal.

[apb2390]

Originally Posted by mman1506

I believe the rule of thumb is that you should always have 2-10 teeth in contact with the metal.

Ahh! That's what I'm missing here. The blades for softwood have a super coarse pitch (4TPI/0.25"). That would make the variable pitch blade Cory posted with the 10-14TPI a way better choice for the thinner stuff we tend to cut in FRC.

Today I learned a bit more about band saw blades.