New York Districts?

[Sperkowsky]

This thread is becoming a repeated argument but whatever.

It Comes down to does everyone suffer or do 1/3 of the teams suffer.

I admit upstate teams get screwed but they are only 1/3 of the teams and as a minority that's someone that has to be done.

If dcmp was in the geographic center Albany (binghamton is a 4 and a half hour drive from li i don't care what Google maps says)

Only about 5 teams would actually benefit from it being in Albany. So the rest of the 150ish would have to all travel. Yea it's a little cheaper for upstate teams but that doesn't account for saved money by not having to have cars or buses accessible.. In a place like Albany you need a bus or a car to go to eat back to the hotel and to and from the venue. In nyc everything is so close that you can usually walk through all those if not taking the the subway which is affordable.

With that in mind it will most likely cost the same for upstate teams to come down to the city regardless of the added hotel costs.

[MrJohnston]

I was concerned when the PNW went to the district model two years ago... I had all the same questions and concerns that NY teams have been raising in this thread.... Two years later, it is confirmed: the district model isn't perfect. However, the positives seem to outweigh the negatives.

Positives:
* Lower income teams that tended not to qualify for advancement, now have two events and more than double the number of matches - for $4K instead if $5K.
* Smaller events make it easier for lesser known teams to get noticed - and helped if needed.
* Nearly every team has at least one event close enough to home that hotels are not necessary. Most teams (those in more densely populated areas) have two- though some choose to do an overnight trip anyhow.
* A higher percentage of teams are able to play in an "advanced" event with a higher level of play. (Previously, it was only Champsionships after a regional.) This event has the same ambiance as a regional and costs the same amount as a regional. Moreover, a good handful of teams don't need to travel to attend.
* There is a lot of opportunity to "fix," "upgrade," and repair a robot before the next event. Allowing for an increase in student learning and robot performance.
* Overall, a stronger cross section of robots from the geographic area attend champs.

Negatives:
* Let's face it, high school gyms do not have the same "pop" as the locations used for regionals. Teams that do not make the district champs miss out on this completely.
* Teams that qualify for champs, do have additional entry fees to pay if they are to to attend over the teams that typically play in one regional, then attend champs. However, for teams that would play in two regionals anyhow, it's a wash.
* The additional one or two weekends of competition (not to mention days between!) can be taxing on mentors....and students' grades.
* Some teams believe that it lowers their chances of getting to Champs... This is true for some: Weaker robots that rely on being that last pick of the #1 alliance in a regional event will struggle to accumulate enough district points to advance past district champs. However, I don't think this is a bad thing.


Overall, I do think it has been a very good move for the PNW - and I was a skeptic at first. I would encourage all NY teams to take a good, fair, look at it. Yes, each geographic area is different, but there are many ways to account for theses regional differences in the institution of a district model for FRC.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

...for $4K instead if $5K.

How does this work? I know that the districts receive money for every team that registers from the district with FIRST, but from everything I know they still need to pay $5K* for their initial registration. According to FIRST's site, this is the case.

*$6K for Rookies.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Nichols

How does this work? I know that the districts receive money for every team that registers from the district with FIRST, but from everything I know they still need to pay $5K* for their initial registration. According to FIRST's site, this is the case.

*$6K for Rookies.

I cannot speak for the inner workings of FIRST. I can tell you that when we were in regionals, we spent $5K to get going and it covered the KoP and our first regional. This year, I paid $4K to start and it covered the KoP and two district competitions... It could be that rookie teams still pay the extra $1,000 - so $5K for both events.

I believe that the main reason for this is that renting a venue large enough for a regional competition is quite expensive, but HS gymnasiums are relatively cheap - sometimes free if the event is "hosted" by that high school's FRC team... That savings is passed on to the teams.

[1493kd]

I know it changes year to year but how many of these teams in the top 60 are from downstate and how many are in areas other then downstate??

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ork+ranking s

[smistthegreat]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

I know it changes year to year but how many of these teams in the top 60 are from downstate and how many are in areas other then downstate??

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ork+ranking s

That data is very flawed in this context for a number of reasons. A better indicator of what you're trying to find would be max opr or average opr.

[Dominick Ferone]

Originally Posted by 1493kd

I know it changes year to year but how many of these teams in the top 60 are from downstate and how many are in areas other then downstate??

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ork+ranking s

If you based it off of this Which you shouldn't, 3 of the top 5 are upstate teams and I believe 26 out of top 60 teams are Also from up north.(could be wrong just going based on numbers I remember being from the upstate area.)

Also if you were to look at all New York regionals they had high scores and $@#$@#$@# the weeks went on they got higher when people gained more skills. (Going from tech valley to flr in one week 6 teams had a final score of over 100 rather than the previous 3.) Also the averages were overall much higher scores than Long Island which was the same week.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

I cannot speak for the inner workings of FIRST. I can tell you that when we were in regionals, we spent $5K to get going and it covered the KoP and our first regional. This year, I paid $4K to start and it covered the KoP and two district competitions... It could be that rookie teams still pay the extra $1,000 - so $5K for both events.

I believe that the main reason for this is that renting a venue large enough for a regional competition is quite expensive, but HS gymnasiums are relatively cheap - sometimes free if the event is "hosted" by that high school's FRC team... That savings is passed on to the teams.

Each district receives $1000 as a re-grant from FIRST for every team that registers. I assume PNW must tell FIRST to apply that $1000 towards the teams registration fees vs. sending it to the District. That would be a choice that the district makes given that they have the funds to support their annual expenses. Otherwise all teams pay $5K per FIRST's website. I don't have any contacts in PNW to confirm this, but since I'm involved in both Regional planning and District conversations with FIRST, this is my educated assumption.

Just trying to prevent mis-information about the fees from getting out there.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

I cannot speak for the inner workings of FIRST. I can tell you that when we were in regionals, we spent $5K to get going and it covered the KoP and our first regional. This year, I paid $4K to start and it covered the KoP and two district competitions... It could be that rookie teams still pay the extra $1,000 - so $5K for both events.

I believe that the main reason for this is that renting a venue large enough for a regional competition is quite expensive, but HS gymnasiums are relatively cheap - sometimes free if the event is "hosted" by that high school's FRC team... That savings is passed on to the teams.

The fee is $5000 for a veteran team in the PNW. Well actually it is $8000 for veteran teams but at least $3000 of that is offset by PNW FIRST grants. You must have received one of the other grants if the net on your initial registration bill was $4000.

In the traditional regional system the $5000 doesn't cover the venue. The RD is charged with raising the funds to cover those costs. FIRST does cover the transportation of the field to and from the event location and the cost of the fields ect.

Now PNW FIRST, and all districts, gets to keep $1000 (or in other districts gets $1000 per team from FIRST) of the initial registration fee to offset some of the costs of running the district.

Yes the district events cost less, but there are more of them. There is usually not a rental fee for the venue but there are other venue costs that are passed along to PNW FIRST. For example there is usually a janitorial fee to cover the school staff that unlocks and secures the building and for them to take care of the garbage (they may empty a given can 4 or 5 times per day) and to hopefully insure that the bathrooms are stocked with paper products.

Note the PNW district is unique in its billing system where PNW FIRST bills the teams for the total cost of participating including registration, rather than US FIRST billing for initial registration. PNW FIRST then provides a team grant to bring that cost to teams back down to the $5000 level (or $6000 for rookie teams). This is done because many donors are happy to donate to teams but aren't interested in paying the janitorial fee, forklift rental trucking ect.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by Mr V

The fee is $5000 for a veteran team in the PNW. Well actually it is $8000 for veteran teams but at least $3000 of that is offset by PNW FIRST grants. You must have received one of the other grants if the net on your initial registration bill was $4000.

In the traditional regional system the $5000 doesn't cover the venue. The RD is charged with raising the funds to cover those costs. FIRST does cover the transportation of the field to and from the event location and the cost of the fields ect.

Now PNW FIRST, and all districts, gets to keep $1000 (or in other districts gets $1000 per team from FIRST) of the initial registration fee to offset some of the costs of running the district.

Yes the district events cost less, but there are more of them. There is usually not a rental fee for the venue but there are other venue costs that are passed along to PNW FIRST. For example there is usually a janitorial fee to cover the school staff that unlocks and secures the building and for them to take care of the garbage (they may empty a given can 4 or 5 times per day) and to hopefully insure that the bathrooms are stocked with paper products.

Note the PNW district is unique in its billing system where PNW FIRST bills the teams for the total cost of participating including registration, rather than US FIRST billing for initial registration. PNW FIRST then provides a team grant to bring that cost to teams back down to the $5000 level (or $6000 for rookie teams). This is done because many donors are happy to donate to teams but aren't interested in paying the janitorial fee, forklift rental trucking ect.

Very interesting.

Along with RD's the local planning committees are tasked with raising the funds for the Regional's. Currently none of the registration fees go towards the cost of the event. Regional's are tasked with raising the funds for the entirety of their event.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

I cannot speak for the inner workings of FIRST. I can tell you that when we were in regionals, we spent $5K to get going and it covered the KoP and our first regional. This year, I paid $4K to start and it covered the KoP and two district competitions... It could be that rookie teams still pay the extra $1,000 - so $5K for both events.

I believe that the main reason for this is that renting a venue large enough for a regional competition is quite expensive, but HS gymnasiums are relatively cheap - sometimes free if the event is "hosted" by that high school's FRC team... That savings is passed on to the teams.

The cost of the venue doesn't factor into your registration fees.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

This thread is becoming a repeated argument but whatever.

It Comes down to does everyone suffer or do 1/3 of the teams suffer.

I see no suffering- in fact NY going to districts means reduced travel times and more competition for everyone in the state.
This is only discussing DCMP, and only the teams that qualify for DCMP have to worry about these travel times and costs.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I admit upstate teams get screwed but they are only 1/3 of the teams and as a minority that's someone that has to be done.

If dcmp was in the geographic center Albany (binghamton is a 4 and a half hour drive from li i don't care what Google maps says)

We'd like to prevent any team being "screwed", regardless of where they're from in the state.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Only about 5 teams would actually benefit from it being in Albany.

False- every team in the capital region, every team in the Rochester region, as well as the Clarkson teams and the assorted Central NY teams would benefit from the DCMP being in Albany or Binghamton vs. NYC. Cheaper travel costs, cheaper hotel costs, and no one has to drive into NYC this way.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

So the rest of the 150ish would have to all travel.

Again, only about 50-60 teams would attend DCMP, so it doesn't affect every team in the state.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Yea it's a little cheaper for upstate teams but that doesn't account for saved money by not having to have cars or buses accessible.. In a place like Albany you need a bus or a car to go to eat back to the hotel and to and from the venue. In nyc everything is so close that you can usually walk through all those if not taking the the subway which is affordable.

False again- there are hotels within ten minutes walking distance of the Times Union Center, as well as at least a dozen within 30 minutes of the TUC via public transportation.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

With that in mind it will most likely cost the same for upstate teams to come down to the city regardless of the added hotel costs.

Again, false. Transportation into the city is a bit of a nightmare, as well as hotels in the city being substantially more expensive than in Albany.
With a quick google search, I found the cheapest hotel I could find was $135/night, while the cheapest hotels in Albany are about $45/night.
That's a substantial difference.

I understand that NY as one district has some difficulties, especially in locating a suitable place for a district championship, but I'd ask you consider the effects on every team that would qualify, and understand that there are teams with monetary and logistical problems everywhere in the state.

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

I was concerned when the PNW went to the district model two years ago... I had all the same questions and concerns that NY teams have been raising in this thread.... Two years later, it is confirmed: the district model isn't perfect. However, the positives seem to outweigh the negatives.

Positives:
* Lower income teams that tended not to qualify for advancement, now have two events and more than double the number of matches - for $4K instead if $5K.
* Smaller events make it easier for lesser known teams to get noticed - and helped if needed.
* Nearly every team has at least one event close enough to home that hotels are not necessary. Most teams (those in more densely populated areas) have two- though some choose to do an overnight trip anyhow.
* A higher percentage of teams are able to play in an "advanced" event with a higher level of play. (Previously, it was only Champsionships after a regional.) This event has the same ambiance as a regional and costs the same amount as a regional. Moreover, a good handful of teams don't need to travel to attend.
* There is a lot of opportunity to "fix," "upgrade," and repair a robot before the next event. Allowing for an increase in student learning and robot performance.
* Overall, a stronger cross section of robots from the geographic area attend champs.

Negatives:
* Let's face it, high school gyms do not have the same "pop" as the locations used for regionals. Teams that do not make the district champs miss out on this completely.
* Teams that qualify for champs, do have additional entry fees to pay if they are to to attend over the teams that typically play in one regional, then attend champs. However, for teams that would play in two regionals anyhow, it's a wash.
* The additional one or two weekends of competition (not to mention days between!) can be taxing on mentors....and students' grades.
* Some teams believe that it lowers their chances of getting to Champs... This is true for some: Weaker robots that rely on being that last pick of the #1 alliance in a regional event will struggle to accumulate enough district points to advance past district champs. However, I don't think this is a bad thing.


Overall, I do think it has been a very good move for the PNW - and I was a skeptic at first. I would encourage all NY teams to take a good, fair, look at it. Yes, each geographic area is different, but there are many ways to account for theses regional differences in the institution of a district model for FRC.

Amen.

[smistthegreat]

In my opinion, the only neat way to resolve the DCMP difference is to split New York into two districts. It solves almost every issue with very limited downside.

- Each region is big enough to have its own district
- Downstate can have a NYC DCMP, upstate can have one in Rochester (or another upstate city)
- Even if we made one big district, the downstate teams would play downstate districts, and vice versa for upstate, essentially splitting the region already

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by smistthegreat

In my opinion, the only neat way to resolve the DCMP difference is to split New York into two districts. It solves almost every issue with very limited downside.

- Each region is big enough to have its own district
- Downstate can have a NYC DCMP, upstate can have one in Rochester (or another upstate city)
- Even if we made one big district, the downstate teams would play downstate districts, and vice versa for upstate, essentially splitting the region already

I want to specifically emphasize the last point here. A point earned in Long Island and a point earned in Rochester would not really even mean the same thing. I don't think it's unfair to say Finger Lakes is typically a more competitive event than Long Island. In other districts, teams can travel / be reassigned to help even things out, but due to the geographic constraints here, few teams will travel from one to the other (and the teams that would are already good enough to qualify for DCMP).

I really think that two districts, or one district and one region merged into the other, is the way to go here. I would even be fine if NYC / LI teams could opt to get real district points from events in the surrounding 3 districts.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by smistthegreat

In my opinion, the only neat way to resolve the DCMP difference is to split New York into two districts. It solves almost every issue with very limited downside.

- Each region is big enough to have its own district
- Downstate can have a NYC DCMP, upstate can have one in Rochester (or another upstate city)
- Even if we made one big district, the downstate teams would play downstate districts, and vice versa for upstate, essentially splitting the region already

How is this different compared to what teams in Districts already experience?

I know New York is split geographically a little more compared to most regions but minus a few teams who travel for the sake of traveling teams in districts for the most part attend events closest to them. We rarely play with teams from Rhode Island or Connecticut until we go to the District Championship which is a 4+ hour drive for some teams to attend. I know many teams in Michigan and Washington/Oregon who drive further to get to their District Championship.

Teams will intermingle if the schedule works better, availability for a third or fourth play, or some teams really like to travel like we have up here.